Marine vs Zealot unarmed

[l33telboi]

Like Norfindel said, the visor is pretty weak: Sarah Kerrigan shattered a Goliath's plexiglass shield with nothing but the butt end of her gun in Liberty's Crusade, and a Marine's visor is easily punctured by hydra spines.

Hydra spines tear through the NeoSteel metal of the combat suit like wet paper, so it's not exactly a surprise that it goes through the visor that easily.

There is a direct example of how much force would be needed to crack the visor on the combat suits, however. I don't know if you've read Heaven's Devils yet, but there's an instance in that book where Tychus Findlay jumps a Ripper and tries to smash the visor of said Kel-Morian with his rifle. Ripper armor is of course inferior to normal CMC armor, and in this case the visor was even specifically said to have been made of low-grade plasteel, and it took six repeat hits from Tychus before the visor cracked. As you probably know, Tychus isn't exactly the smallest or weakest of individuals. And that was when the head was braced against the ground.

I think a Protoss might have a chance at cracking it, but that'd mean we'd have to assume that it's a lot stronger then a human, and using something like a rock to help with the bashing.

[Norfindel]

I suppose I'm having a hard time with suspension of disbelief. I just can't see an unarmed basically "man-sized" (albeit slightly larger) creature "wrenching" the arm of a 4-500 pound exoskeleton.

They aren't just slightly larger. Measure something 3m tall, then step next to it and look up. It's huge. A human scaled to that size couldn't even move, and the Protoss can jump like crazy. Clearly, there's nothing normal about them.

I don't know if an unarmored Protoss can wrestle with an armored Marine, but he wouldn't need to do that. The smart thing to do is to move around the Marine, that should be still clumsier in that big armor, and attack a weak spot. I bet that dark claws are fairly good weapons on their own.

[Gradius]

Here's a picture of the exact scale of Protoss vs. Human if the 3 meter figure is correct.



I used photoshop's ruler tool for this. 2.0066 meters (tychus's height) / 3 meters = tychus is 67% the height of a regular Protoss. Basically, Protoss are giants.

And there are contradictions too, like that one event where a Zealot was hurled through a paristeel wall and survived, while a Thor in the story "Thundergod" couldn't punch through a paristeel door with his entire arsenal.

Now which makes more sense to you guys? The fact that a Thor can't punch through a paristeel door with his entire arsenal of weaponry, or that a Zealot is able to survive getting thrown through one? Terrans might as well type GG since their strike cannons are basically useless against a zealot if we're to take both instances as canon and "non-contradictory."

Wasn't the wall the Thor was trying to crack like 5 meters thick or something? For all we know the wall the zealot was flung through could have been made out of sheet metal. :P

The other explanation is the wall was segmented, and the Zealot didn't actually break any metal.

[Norfindel]

Hell, a Human head fits inside a Protoss hand. And Nova was supposed to fight against them

[//MavericK\\]

Hell, a Human head fits inside a Protoss hand. And Nova was supposed to fight against them

The original post wasn't specific about which human, so I was wondering how an unarmed and unarmored Ghost operative, like Nova, would fair against a standard, unarmed unarmored Zealot.

I think what the Ghost loses in brute strength, he or she makes up for in agility. Granted, Protoss are fast, too, but I bet a Ghost is faster and even more maneuverable.

If Nova was able to take out Marines who were wearing full CMC combat armor, per some of the Ghost in-game screens shots, then she probably could have gotten the drop on an unsuspecting Zealot or two.

Opinions?

[Kimera757]

Hell, a Human head fits inside a Protoss hand. And Nova was supposed to fight against them

Nova is much more powerful than the standard ghost. She'd just fry the zealot's brain.

[Biffer]

Yeah, i mean, Nova has the psionic ability to kill a dozen people through telekinesis. She even stopped a building from collapsing. She would waste the most basic unit of any army, be it terran, zerg, or protoss.

[Gradius]

Yeah, there's no way that's true. Humans have no mental defenses at all - Nova can kill as many of them as she has stamina for. Zealots have spent their entire lives communicating mentally and are much more mentally powerful than standard ghosts on top of that. It's not going to be easy to fry another psychic's mind. If Tassadar is more psionically powerful than Kerrigan, can he just fry her mind? No. Kerrigan has enough mental defenses to resist.

Also, keep in mind that a regular high templar would smoke Nova, and the power difference between a zealot and an HT isn't that much - the only difference is how they use their psionics.

[Norfindel]

Nova is much more powerful than the standard ghost. She'd just fry the zealot's brain.

That couldn't ever happend, because the Protoss have a *lot* more psionic power than Humans, no matter who is it. Terrans are in infant psionic stages, even if there are individuals that have much more power than the norm.

[Kimera757]

Zealots have spent their entire lives communicating mentally and are much more mentally powerful than standard ghosts on top of that.

According to the Dark Templar Saga, other than Dark Templar, protoss generally do not learn how to block mind-reading. I believe that was depicted in Shadow Hunters, with a reminder that the protoss from the Aeon of Strife (who did not have access to the Khala) regularly shielded their mind.

In essence, it was a lost skill.

It's not going to be easy to fry another psychic's mind. If Tassadar is more psionically powerful than Kerrigan, can he just fry her mind? No. Kerrigan has enough mental defenses to resist.

Tassadar is no ordinary protoss. Same problem with ghosts; most known ghosts are super-powered. Most known protoss high templar are super-powered (beyond the already superpoweredness of the standard high templar). Even depictions of psi storm from crappy novels like Shadow of the Xel'Naga tend to involve either heroic protoss, or sitting in a pile of khaydarin crystals, or (in the SotXN example) both!

Also, keep in mind that a regular high templar would smoke Nova

I'm sure he would. There's nothing saying Nova can defend her mind, at least not to that extent; while ghosts seem to read each other well, at least a few (like Devon Starke) have shown the ability to resist telpathic probing. However, since psionic storms can do physical damage (like destroying jungles), even if Nova has crazy powerful mental defenses she'd lose anyway. It doesn't really tell us who's more powerful, especially when it comes to zealots!

(I'll believe a zealot is more powerful than Nova when I see one smoke a dozen terrans or zerglings simultaneously.)

and the power difference between a zealot and an HT isn't that much - the only difference is how they use their psionics.

We don't actually know that. There's nothing saying there isn't a lot of individual variation among protoss, even within the Templar Caste. (How else do you explain how Fenix, who is older than Tassadar, is not a high templar? Either he decided not to train in mental combat, or he just wasn't as talented psionically.) Perhaps only a few zealots are worthy of getting trained to be high templar. (It's kind of like training a bunch of kids through high school. They all graduate, but some of them have no hope of passing university, and either never bother to try, or do so and end up failing or dropping out.)

That couldn't ever happend, because the Protoss have a *lot* more psionic power than Humans, no matter who is it.

I disagree with the bolded part. Does Valerian even know who Nova is? Does Kevin Bick keep secrets from him? How about his father? Or Dr. Stanley Burgess? The terrans don't seem to know much about protoss in any event, and most of their interactions involve members of the Templar Caste (confirmed to be more powerful in Do No Harm).

Terrans are in infant psionic stages, even if there are individuals that have much more power than the norm.

But that doesn't mean top-of-the-line psychics, like Nova, can't be more powerful than weak protoss. I don't see random Khalai killing dozens of zerg just by thinking about it. (If they could, how come the protoss nearly lost the war?) That's an ability that Nova has (well, presumed, since she can do that to terrans).

In fact, Gestalt Zero was able to drop multiple Khalai (in the flashbacks; that's how he kidnapped them, and this was before he got his Muadun upgrade, bringing him to PI 7.5) and, while he was already part-protoss and therefore more powerful than the standard ghost, he was less powerful than ghosts like Sarah Kerrigan (PI 8+) or Nova (PI 10). So how does Gestalt Zero defeat all those Khalai if they could literally think him to death?

(And yes, he wasn't dropping them with his mental powers, but the Khalai should have been able to read his thoughts and then stun him with "psychic shouts" if protoss psychics are always more powerful than terran psychics.)