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Thread: Marine vs Zealot unarmed

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    Take a guy like Findlay (although he doesn't represent the average marine, most are going to be way stronger than the average Terran). Compare him to a guy like Maruisz Pudzianowski, 5 time world's strongest man, who is still smaller than Findlay's bio says (Pudz is 6'1", 300 lbs, Findlay is 6'7", 360 lbs). You put someone in a suit that augments their natural strength, and you are looking at one mean motherf*****. 800 lbs is impressive for a zealot to toss, but without the suit, Findlay (if he's like Pudz), can easily hurl 400+ pounds without a suit. Someone else said that the suits can lift upwards of a ton (2k lbs) between them. So I would submit that there is no strength advantage. Have any of you ever seen how much lifting power a pneumatic or hydraulic piston has? that's the sort of "strength" that is driving this suit. No question the CMC suit affords more raw "strength". If nothing else, you have to consider that the physics of a zealot's body operate the same way a terran's would. They don't have some magical mechanical advantage that allows their 4 foot long arms to operate differently than a man's.

    Even in combat, you'd have to give the zealot some form of exotic skin/bone (natural carbon fiber??) to withstand trying to drive their fist into the steel (neosteel?) skin on the CMC armor. Provided the zealot didn't shatter every bone in it's fist on contact, it would still have make a significant impact on the suit itself to render the marine incapacitated.

    You have to give the speed advantage to the zealot. Strength advantage has to go to the marine. Skill, probably could go either way. You look at someone like Kerrigan who killed a confederate officer with a kick to the head, and you could argue that a battle trained marine has his fair share of martial arts/H2H combat training.

    I say it's a toss-up. Findlay pwns your run-of-the-mill zealot. Zeratul >>>> all others.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    Why can't the Zealot use his armor too? The original post simply said that he thinks a Marine wouldn't win even if the Zealot didn't don his armor.

    Norfindal brings up a good chunk of points.

    If a Zealot can use precognitive actions and a makeshift form of teleporting-like speed, that would easily surpass brute strength. Those CMC suits aren't all that mobile/flexible let alone meant for Hand to hand combat.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    to your point about speed, I think that there are a lot of unknowns, mostly about the abilities of the CMC suits and the zealots physical composition.

    I think it's more likely that an un-armored, very highly skilled terran would stand a better chance against an unarmed, unarmed zealot (think loin cloth for both). particularly if the zealot is ghost that can use its own psionic abilities.

    I still submit that if a CMC suit got a hold of a zealot, it'd be GG. You don't need to look much further than the kind of force a piston can generate, now put that in each finger of the suit - no way a zealot would escape.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    Quote Originally Posted by Norfindel View Post
    Yeah, because the physical aspect is very simple.

    Also the psychic, anyways. I mean, if your only means of communication is to use telephathy, you can turn your whole body into pure energy for a few microseconds, and you can use a limited form of precognition, stunning a guy shouldn't be much difficult, considering it's a telepathic ability.
    The limited precognition is just that... limited. It's very useful, but it doesn't kill things on its own.

    Turning your own body into energy is very impressive, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with telepathy. (And why should it? If you can do that, you can just speed into the guy's face and shove a stick through his face.)

    And there's also my favorite quote on the subject:
    Yeah... too bad the lore isn't nearly that clear on that point. (That's the point of view of a terran, and we've seen even experts like Stanley Burgess often don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the protoss. Always analyze the source of a statement for bias.*)

    Not even comparing against a Zealot, but any Protoss. Not for nothing Ghosts need to use drugs to stun an unaware, completely distracted, unarmored HT.
    Are you talking about Gestalt Zero? Of course his powers aren't nearly enough to take on a high templar; he was only a little more powerful than a typical ghost, especially before his upgrade. (Although note said high templar didn't sense him coming.) But he was up against a high templar, not a zealot. We didn't see any stunning from either side. In fact, given that Muadun was cut off from the Khala for virtually the whole story, and was exhausted for the rest, we never really got to see a protoss vs terran fight. (Beyond his one use of psi storm, which was kickass, of course.)

    Hell, i bet that most Ghosts wouldn't even be able to stun a normal guy.
    That's because most ghosts are weak. PI 5-6 basically means you can read minds and need a suit to do anything else with it. That neither supports nor opposes the idea that zealots can somehow stun people.

    *This was central to the speculation article about the hybrids. Duran and Zamara probably aren't both right, but who knows which one is? (And possibly neither!)
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    One hypersonic bullet to the head/brain can kill anything living...i real life that is...About the topic,i really have no idea who will win,but as i see people say that it will win their favourite regardless if it's true or not,in threads like these you are not suppose to put personal preferences...(that was aimed at all those protoss supporters )

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffer View Post
    If nothing else, you have to consider that the physics of a zealot's body operate the same way a terran's would. They don't have some magical mechanical advantage that allows their 4 foot long arms to operate differently than a man's.
    They do have a magical mechanical advantage actually: psionics. Tassadar once tried to punch Zeratul so hard that Raynor felt the wind from it on a totally different ledge, and he didn't even see the movement.

    Protoss are also alot stronger than they look. That's because they were the strongest race the Xel'Naga found (who ruled thousands of worlds). This means they can recruit an insane amount of motor units to their muscles, which greatly increases strength. I'd say their core especially is alot more muscular than it appears since they have no GI tract.

    Even in combat, you'd have to give the zealot some form of exotic skin/bone (natural carbon fiber??) to withstand trying to drive their fist into the steel (neosteel?) skin on the CMC armor. Provided the zealot didn't shatter every bone in it's fist on contact, it would still have make a significant impact on the suit itself to render the marine incapacitated.
    Like Norfindel said, the visor is pretty weak: Sarah Kerrigan shattered a Goliath's plexiglass shield with nothing but the butt end of her gun in Liberty's Crusade, and a Marine's visor is easily punctured by hydra spines.

    Also, a Zealot could easily find some sort of weapon lying around it and use it if he's worried about hitting so hard his bones will shatter i.e. ripping the Marine's shoulder plate off.

    You have to give the speed advantage to the zealot. Strength advantage has to go to the marine. Skill, probably could go either way. You look at someone like Kerrigan who killed a confederate officer with a kick to the head, and you could argue that a battle trained marine has his fair share of martial arts/H2H combat training.
    Skill? Not in such a large powered combat suit. Kerrigan has a ghost suit which is enhanced by her psionics and is form fitting.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    They do have a magical mechanical advantage actually: psionics. Tassadar once tried to punch Zeratul so hard that Raynor felt the wind from it on a totally different ledge, and he didn't even see the movement.

    Protoss are also alot stronger than they look. That's because they were the strongest race the Xel'Naga found (who ruled thousands of worlds). This means they can recruit an insane amount of motor units to their muscles, which greatly increases strength. I'd say their core especially is alot more muscular than it appears since they have no GI tract.

    Like Norfindel said, the visor is pretty weak: Sarah Kerrigan shattered a Goliath's plexiglass shield with nothing but the butt end of her gun in Liberty's Crusade, and a Marine's visor is easily punctured by hydra spines.

    Also, a Zealot could easily find some sort of weapon lying around it and use it if he's worried about hitting so hard his bones will shatter i.e. ripping the Marine's shoulder plate off.

    Skill? Not in such a large powered combat suit. Kerrigan has a ghost suit which is enhanced by her psionics and is form fitting.
    Good points - I'm clearly not as well versed on this topic as some others. So I'd like to better understand this. Even if for example, a human being could replace their natural muscle fiber with say...high tension cable, if you tried to curl 500 lbs with your arm, your bones would likely snap. You connective tissue would fail as well.

    Can a protoss use psionics to enhance the actual composition of their physique? Such that if a zealot were to strike the hull of a battlecruiser, would they be able to use psionics to prevent 1) the breaking of skin, 2) the fracture of bone, or 3) the tearing of muscles and connective tissue?

    I'm not aware of this, so please inform me so I don't sound like an uneducated toolshed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    They do have a magical mechanical advantage actually: psionics. Tassadar once tried to punch Zeratul so hard that Raynor felt the wind from it on a totally different ledge, and he didn't even see the movement.

    Protoss are also alot stronger than they look. That's because they were the strongest race the Xel'Naga found (who ruled thousands of worlds). This means they can recruit an insane amount of motor units to their muscles, which greatly increases strength. I'd say their core especially is alot more muscular than it appears since they have no GI tract.

    Like Norfindel said, the visor is pretty weak: Sarah Kerrigan shattered a Goliath's plexiglass shield with nothing but the butt end of her gun in Liberty's Crusade, and a Marine's visor is easily punctured by hydra spines.

    Also, a Zealot could easily find some sort of weapon lying around it and use it if he's worried about hitting so hard his bones will shatter i.e. ripping the Marine's shoulder plate off.

    Skill? Not in such a large powered combat suit. Kerrigan has a ghost suit which is enhanced by her psionics and is form fitting.
    Well, and by the same token, if a zealot can use a makeshift weapon, a marine in CMC could throw a 1-ton hunk of steel at his assailant as well. This discussion is just H2H, or so I thought - no weapons involved, makeshift or otherwise.
    Last edited by Gradius; 05-26-2010 at 06:46 PM. Reason: use the edit button instead of making a new post

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffer View Post
    Can a protoss use psionics to enhance the actual composition of their physique? Such that if a zealot were to strike the hull of a battlecruiser, would they be able to use psionics to prevent 1) the breaking of skin, 2) the fracture of bone, or 3) the tearing of muscles and connective tissue?

    I'm not aware of this, so please inform me so I don't sound like an uneducated toolshed.
    I don't know - there haven't been any examples that I recall where a Zealot tried to punch something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffer View Post
    This discussion is just H2H, or so I thought - no weapons involved, makeshift or otherwise.
    Right, which is why the example I brought up includes the Zealot ripping off the Marine's shoulder plate and using it as a club (whether he can is up for debate, though I think it's possible). Or is that not allowed too?

  9. #49

    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    I doubt an armored marine could throw anything like a ton. There's a difference between moving a heavy object slowly and being able to manipulate it at all well.
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  10. #50

    Default Re: Marine vs Zealot unarmend

    I still submit that if a CMC suit got a hold of a zealot, it'd be GG. You don't need to look much further than the kind of force a piston can generate, now put that in each finger of the suit - no way a zealot would escape.
    Zealots can dematerialize and move at ridiculous speeds (charge).

    I doubt the suit would be fast enough to hit the zealot at all. I guess the best marine in the world in armor might stand a chance against a really crappy zealot in training. It comes down to how the zealot exert psionics like precognition, dematerialization, shielding, or even just to outright kill.

    The marine suit certainly isn't mobile enough, from the size of the joints alone, to allow a terran to instantly pick up a one tone object and throw it in a timespace that would allow its use as a weapon.

    Skill? Not in such a large powered combat suit
    Theirs skill in operating any kind of complex machinery. Of course the marine suit would have complex dynamics that need to be mastered that allow for better movement. You can be a skilled crane operator even if the crane restricts movement in a million ways.
    Last edited by newcomplex; 05-26-2010 at 08:52 PM.

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