colossi thermal lances

[protoswarrior]

You're omitting the timing, DemoSquid. Upgrades require timing for a unit to be critically effective. It's the same for the Colossus. It was made on purpose to suck without the range upgrade so that you are forced to get it to preserve your Colossus longer. That's why getting it is important. If it wasn't there and just a given, it would make the Colossus a Titan from Tiberian Sun... POS wtfpwn unit with only air unit counters...

[Nicol Bolas]

Of course, that's just how I would design the game. Blizzard obviously prefers a different approach.

That's because they recognize that some race's "Tier 3" is different from others. Protoss have only 4 buildings between a Nexus and any unit they could possibly want. Terrans have 4 and a half, but only one unit requires the fourth. Zerg have 5. This, among many other things, makes "Tier 3" different for the different races.

By adding Tier 3 research, what you're doing is forcing a player to commit to a strategy. It's one thing to add a Colossus to your army composition. It's quite another to add a Colossus + Thermal Lances. The latter says, "I'm going to be using these for a while."

A Colossus that comes with TLs would have to be more expensive than one without them, simply due to utility. But by making the extra range a research, they allow a certain base level utility, while allowing a player who wants to invest more in Colossi to do so and gain an advantage in it.

It also affects the Colossus's timing. 350 gas for a Colossus + TL upgrade at the same time is a lot different from 400 gas for two Colossi from the same Robo. They're both making demands for gas simultaneously, if you want to have a Colossus that gets TLs immediately. That throws off the timing of the upgraded range a lot.

They're both making demands for Chrono Boost, forcing the Protoss to choose between a faster but weaker Colossus or a stronger but slower Colossus.

[TheRabidDeer]

Increasing/Reducing the Colossus' damage/HP/cost/speed/build timeetc. would achieve the same results as having an upgrade for it now. There are many ways to balance a unit. Blizzard just likes the "lets give everything an upgrade or two" idea.

None of those would achieve the same result as having an upgrade. Increasing/reducing the damage/hp/cost/speed/build time effects all current and future colossus permanently. If you add 10 seconds of build time but give them the upgrade to start (so they always have 9 range), then its a buff for the first couple colossus, but then any time after that its a huge nerf.

If you give them an upgrade, it changes nothing about the colossus itself, then the upgrade finally lets you use them to their full extent. Purely effecting the timing of the colossus' use.

This is why blizzard adds things like changing the concussive shells upgrade to a super cheap 50/50 upgrade. That is almost free, but it effects the timing which delays marauder rushes against protoss (and possibly other things)

[DemolitionSquid]

If you want to delay a Marauder rush, then just delay Marauders. There's no point in upgrades for that purpose. Now, if Marauders suddenly started getting less useful as the game progressed, THEN you should give it an upgrade to bring it back up to snuff.

That is how I would design it.

[MajinX]

If you want to delay a Marauder rush, then just delay Marauders. There's no point in upgrades for that purpose. Now, if Marauders suddenly started getting less useful as the game progressed, THEN you should give it an upgrade to bring it back up to snuff.

That is how I would design it.

judging from all the replies to your point, i think it seems your instead of upgrades but stronger units but more cost idea is refuted. Upgrades take time and are a choice, if they all came with it, you dont have that choice of not upgrading (even tho its a horrible idea.) but nonetheless its still a choice, maybe a player only wants one or two colossi as zergling/baneling defense at their choke and dont want to put that much money for them and is opting for an air army since with zerg they can change up their strat so easily you knwo they wont stay at ling/baneling/hydras for long. esp if they see one or two colossi, they would def go air after that.

[DemolitionSquid]

If everyone gets the upgrade all the time because its the best way, then its not really a choice. Just like how using Chrono Boost isn't a choice, regardless of how many buildings you can to choose between to cast it on.

[TheRabidDeer]

If you want to delay a Marauder rush, then just delay Marauders. There's no point in upgrades for that purpose. Now, if Marauders suddenly started getting less useful as the game progressed, THEN you should give it an upgrade to bring it back up to snuff.

That is how I would design it.

And how would you delay the marauders that wont effect them past the early game?

If everyone gets the upgrade all the time because its the best way, then its not really a choice. Just like how using Chrono Boost isn't a choice, regardless of how many buildings you can to choose between to cast it on.

What? I very frequently to use CB in the mid-late game, therefore I am refusing the "choice" of using CB. CB is very much a choice, you are just being dumb now.

[Todie]

everyone gets stimpacks and seigemode all the time as well, the difference is, those structures have upgrades of comparable value on them.

i agree with the pack though: the lacnes upgrade has a place, partialyl because a colossi that had 9 range wihtout even requireing an upgrade would be silly; regardless of any nerfed stats otherwise, if you could get it out by a similar time as you can get out a 6 range colossi now, it would be ridiculously useful vs anyone that dint appen to have a counter handy.


... so how about some tension on taht support bay? who ever gets the observer or phaseprism speed upgrades? could they be combined into one? could some new upgrade be added, like increased phase-mode-range for prisms?

.. perhaps soemthing more funky? like an upgrade to let prismsact as some sort of shieldbattery? (farfetched and uncalled for, i know..)

[MajinX]

If everyone gets the upgrade all the time because its the best way, then its not really a choice. Just like how using Chrono Boost isn't a choice, regardless of how many buildings you can to choose between to cast it on.

huh lol.. well not everyone gets upgrades all the time.. ive seen marauders without the concussion missiles, ive seen marines without shields or stim even, ive seen roaches without speed upgrade (which is very useful btw) and ive seen stalkers without blink all the time and blink is an awesome skill..

and just coz everyone gets an upgrade its still a choice, when u get the upgrade is a big deal, for example getting speed for lings when ur under attack is a bad idea, u should use ur minerals for queens/more lings or even a roach warren. The choice isnt just for getting it or not, its for when to get it also. I repeat again its the CHOICE that matters. Hell if every unit is upgraded already imagine how boring the game is, everyone has identical strong upgraded units instead of like blinking stalkers vs charging zealots

[DemolitionSquid]

I have no idea how you guys are getting so confused. I'm just stating my design philosophy.

If the metagame makes it so everyone is getting the same units and same upgrades for those units at the same time because its the best way to win, than that upgrade becomes moot and should simply be integrated into the base unit.