Surgical Strikes vs Massing: Raids are Pointless

[GnaReffotsirk]

Yeah, I've seen some do that. But the point being that it takes a whole lot to harass than to just macro up.

While your thorship is on the way, I'm at your door ready to pounce, and got some units ready to fend off your thorship or what not in just a few seconds.

Do you really think it makes such a huge impact to harass vs an opponent who knows what he's doing? I think not. I'd rather be on the macro than save those few hellions for a counter maneuver while my opponent is moving in.

[//MavericK\\]

When I harass expos, my goal is to completely neutralize the entire thing. Kill all the workers and then destroy the CC, Nexus or Hatchery and finally the refineries. Not punch at the workers only. Four Banshees can do this very quickly, especially with a viking or two for cover. Cost for cost, this is a good thing for you and a bad thing for the other guy. He'll lose around a 600 or 700 minerals worth of units and buildings and some of the force that he will inevitably send to thwart your attack not to mention a vital portion of his economic stream.

[Nicol Bolas]

It's funny; at almost the same time you were writing the OP, Day[9] was busy doing analysis on a couple of matches, one of which was TheLittleOne harassing a player to death.

Watch that and tell me that "surgical strikes" mean nothing in SC2.

[Hammy]

Yeah, I've seen some do that. But the point being that it takes a whole lot to harass than to just macro up.

While your thorship is on the way, I'm at your door ready to pounce, and got some units ready to fend off your thorship or what not in just a few seconds.

Do you really think it makes such a huge impact to harass vs an opponent who knows what he's doing? I think not. I'd rather be on the macro than save those few hellions for a counter maneuver while my opponent is moving in.

Unfortunately that's just crazy talk :/ As bolas said, you could watch the Day9 daily, or the HDH vods with TLO or Nony for example.
Harassing is a key component of SC2. Perhaps not as often as you'd like, but if done right it can be much more beneficial than just macroing up.

[Genopath]

A surgical strike is never a best response strategy. Sure they might work sometimes but in the long run against decent players you'll be behind.

[FoxSpirit]

Yeah, I've seen some do that. But the point being that it takes a whole lot to harass than to just macro up.

While your thorship is on the way, I'm at your door ready to pounce, and got some units ready to fend off your thorship or what not in just a few seconds.

Do you really think it makes such a huge impact to harass vs an opponent who knows what he's doing? I think not. I'd rather be on the macro than save those few hellions for a counter maneuver while my opponent is moving in.

The thing is, you have been watching too many mediocre streams. And that's almost all. They are rank 1 platinum playing house with a spot on macro but not enough skill to micro a raid at the same time.

The reason is simple, good micro takes much more practice than the macro in SC2 and in the start you rake in many more wins of you just learn to macro up. I watched some Chinese stream that was incredible recently. Many small skirmishes and food barely over 100 at any time because they constantly fought. This also makes raiding much better since being able to push ahead with units for 30 supply thanks to a good raid is much better when both sit at 80 instead of 140.

Kinda like our national football (soccer) team. We do great in under 21 leagues. But our grown up team... yeah. The reason is because we focus so much on defense, at lower skill level that wins a lot of games. But later on the other guys catch up there and THEY have good offense players which also take longer to mature in their skill.

So you'll have to wait for the micro players to finally get to grips with their macro and then you'll start to see some very interesting things

sidenote: It's much more fun being the one trying to harass and raid and be one on the move all the time. And yeah, I have eaten some nasty losses from that. But it's a much more interesting learning experience than " damn, my curve was behind". Of course, without mastering the curve, my micro means little. But I have time. Years of time

[Hoywolf]

Yeah, I've seen some do that. But the point being that it takes a whole lot to harass than to just macro up.

While your thorship is on the way, I'm at your door ready to pounce, and got some units ready to fend off your thorship or what not in just a few seconds.

Do you really think it makes such a huge impact to harass vs an opponent who knows what he's doing? I think not. I'd rather be on the macro than save those few hellions for a counter maneuver while my opponent is moving in.

Dropping in some MMM in your base at the mineral line can do a lot of damage, if your saying that your at my door, which would question my drop, but in any case, its gonna hurt, your gonna have to base race or retreat to defense, both not a very solid strategy. I dont even need to send my whole army, just 1 ship with a few MM will do a good job hurting you econ. Remember you cant marco up if you dont have the econ to support it.

It still is a huge impact to harass. Just like in any game such as this, you will a larger advantage when your attacking or doing the offense, if your caught at the wrong time marco-ing up you will lose, if your caught expanding, your troops caught while moving, and more. Harassing can keep your opponent contained, allowing you to be more flexible.

What are you marco-ing up too? you can be countered as easy as you can be mass up as well.

Your always going to be in the long game i suppose, personally if i can end a game faster i will, the long you stretch out a game the less chance you have of winning, in term of it being played out to more random variable.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I'm sorry, but Demaga could have nullified TLO's 10:00 siege tank, blown up that wall at 8:30 with 24 banelings and 12 lings with another 12 on the way.

TLO loses the supply depot, the fac, rax. Leaving only the Thor at 60% HP, the Hellion, the Dropship.

What Demaga's base would have looked like after this is:
1. Ready for Lair Tech
2. One base, one queen.
3. Expo at 20%.

TLO could have attacked with the Hellion + 4 rines early right? You'll have 24 lings at that time. The key is to not engage the hellions off-creep.

TLO's task would have to find the banelings as they morph. Attack while they're in transit, or lift-off as the banelings come in. That would lead to:
a. Intact Wall, but no CC, only the under construction.
b. Lose Thors, rines, and hellion, with base and wall intact.

That drop attack was at 9:00, a lot of units could have been out by that time.

This is why I frown at hiding the replay progress bar.

My point is if Demaga massed, he would have won. So, that video just proved my point all the more.

And, I just had a ZvZ, we both went for one basing. He went for the fastest muta possible (8:00), and I went the massed bane/ling. His Lair kaputs, I had one expo, hes got 4 mutas. And mutas are the only, and I must emphasize, only harass unit for the Zerg.

Lings? No, they're attack forces. Sure, you can make them suicide for 3-4 workers by focus attacking, but it won't work.

I've seen one Ling early harass that worked. But it only worked since the toss foolishly FE's on LT. His cannon was barely up, and a huge hole was there. The Zerg went 10pool lings first.

edit:

But I hear you guys. I'm not saying one cannot use the mobility in sc2, but it's a secondary option. Against a passive player, it will work, but when? at around 10:00. That's the safest way to strike at econ. And the best way is to fake an attack, to lure them forces out. But by that time, again, there's waaay too many units you can make that you can just clash then do the harass after.

So, if this is the way SC2 works, then it's almost impossible to harass without having so many units in your raiding party. Which is no longer a raiding party, but an attack party.

Wanna drop 6 rines? Your dropship will go kaput to the standing army even before they can arrive.

DTs? Works if the opponent doesn't have detection which is so much easy to get than the DTs.

You say harass at 12:00? Nevermind, just attack his forces with superior composition.

[Sigel]

I like the fact a group of people say that APM is loosing importance while another group says "you can't effectivly give 5 meaningfull instructions in 2 different places in 2 seconds"

Give it some time...There's no way people have enough practice yet (and that includes pros) to do everything at once. Nor has there been enough time to discover all the possiblities of the game yet. The game already evolves at tremendous speed but people forget we're barely into beta (it's been like what? 3-4 months?) and compare it with a game people had 10 years to practice on. Watch some very old BW matches and you'll see how much poorer they were than even SC2 now.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I like the fact a group of people say that APM is loosing importance while another group says "you can't effectivly give 5 meaningfull instructions in 2 different places in 2 seconds"

Give it some time...There's no way people have enough practice yet (and that includes pros) to do everything at once. Nor has there been enough time to discover all the possiblities of the game yet. The game already evolves at tremendous speed but people forget we're barely into beta (it's been like what? 3-4 months?) and compare it with a game people had 10 years to practice on. Watch some very old BW matches and you'll see how much poorer they were than even SC2 now.

I know, and I admit my ignorance. A lot to be honest. But it shouldn't be so hard. It's not like this is a completely new game. And to try if a strat works or not, one doesn't need to do a lot yet or go for the win. All one has to do is dedicate his attention to his plan of action and see how much it can do for him.

Multitasking is only at its greatest when you begin to include everything into the equation. Preparations, keeping up, etc.

But, hey, what do I know...

And, to note, taking for example SC1's reaver harass, it all started as a reaver drop. It was actually a game ender, when everyone had no choice but to grab expos at great distances. Naturals wasn't there yet. So execution-wise, everyone knows what a reaver harass is, but no one did it (yet) while keeping his base busy and working, multiplying his advantage along the way.

So, the point being, that like the example above, the strat is already there. How to execute it while still doing other things than it is something else.