Surgical Strikes vs Massing: Raids are Pointless

[drews]

You guys are all on crack if you think workers need a nerf.

If anything all workers hp and dmg should be buffed.

Ling and muta harassment is far too good. Reapers are right where they should be.

If anything economy is too strong and it's too difficult to comeback. If you lose like 4 workers it shouldn't be gg, that would be the stupidest thing ever. Good thing blizzard would never sink that low.

But back to the OP - yes I agree massing units is too easy and too good. Hell most 1v1 play games with zerg and protoss are nothing more then zergling or zealot mass rush. This game is not ready for release.

[Crazy_Jonny]

Most of the time sc2 is just a rush then turtling till you mass fun stuff....not

From playing the game myself and watching others, if you get too gun-shy after t1 it could cost you the game. And how is utilizing all of your tech in the same game not fun (if your massing a single unit ur doing it wrong)?

I would suggest a reaper nerf because static Ds are currently useless against them, but thats about it.

[0mar]

Raiding is awesome. For example, one of my main openings against Zerg is to go 1 gate stargate, pump 4 phoenix out as fast as possible and then graviton beam as much as I can before getting chased out. Depending on how the other guy opened, I can kill between 3-5 drones and a queen. In that early game (~7-8 minutes), it's a devastating loss.

Against Terran, it's a bit more tricky because they are more gas-blocked than mineral blocked, but I like doing 2 void rays to robo and pick off any buildings that I can. Even the best of players will have a depot or two undefended. Killing depots is a double whammy because they need to rebuild it (duh) and also because they can no longer build any units. This gives you a minute or so to jump ahead, so to speak.

Raiding is not going to be a finishing blow, but it's a bunch of body shots that soften up the enemy.

[Hoywolf]

What is your definition of raiding? Because harassing, stopping workers from mining, and the like can really push you ahead in the game. It will not win you the game, but when you start to add up your advantages it will make up in the end.

An example, is harassing with mutas, I head to the main base and start to kill his working, his amry moves back to his base (that is a big advantage), then i fly over to his expansion and harass those, he has to yet again move around, eventually i have to leave, he builds AA def and the like, and I start to make roaches to overrun his ground force. I hurt his econ which is bad, and he then used it to build something that is not as effective.

I feel raiding is important, massing up units and watching 1 big fight... is like playing rock-paper-scissor. Mini raids will help you in the long run. and its not hard to macro up when your fighting, just hot key your production buildings. =\

[SlickR]

Nice way to over-simplify things.

Its not as simple as you are trying to describe it and by raids, it can mean go in the enemy mineral line with 3 colossus and kill all probes in 1 second.

So, stating the obvious raids are not useless.

[Hammy]

Massing is so easily accessible, where econ and production times are high, fast raids to kill a few probes or a single structure isn't worth it anymore.

If massing is easy, just mass while harassing. You'll gain an edge. If you can't handle the multitasking and lose that way, you might just be the weaker player (or make bad decisions and aren't harassing well).

And then you say you should drop in his mineral line.... well drop strategies require dropships...

I'm sure you've noticed that pretty muc everyone disagrees with you... You really don't raise any valid points... Especially that you don't even mention the skill level you're talking about.

About the 5 actions in 2seconds.... 300APM isn't unusual among BW pros... and that's an average over the whole game except the two first minutes. Whether it's useful or not is another question (there's a thread for that). About the "on two different locations", well try to find Nada reassigning his waypoints and you'll be impressed.

[//MavericK\\]

Surgical strikes are different in SC2. It's much harder to make them worth the cost and the effort.
However, they are possible, like dropping Siege Tanks at your enemy's higher ground expansion on Kulas Ravine. Two or three tanks can wreak havoc if they have a spotter.

I started doing this recently... it works amazingly well against Terran. The distance from the edge of the cliff to were a normal wall-in occurs is perfect. I actually brought along an SCV for repairs and tore him up with with just two tanks. Then after the wall-in came down, I came in with a small MM ball and finished him off.

[GnaReffotsirk]

If massing is easy, just mass while harassing. You'll gain an edge. If you can't handle the multitasking and lose that way, you might just be the weaker player (or make bad decisions and aren't harassing well).

And then you say you should drop in his mineral line.... well drop strategies require dropships...

I'm sure you've noticed that pretty muc everyone disagrees with you... You really don't raise any valid points... Especially that you don't even mention the skill level you're talking about.

About the 5 actions in 2seconds.... 300APM isn't unusual among BW pros... and that's an average over the whole game except the two first minutes. Whether it's useful or not is another question (there's a thread for that). About the "on two different locations", well try to find Nada reassigning his waypoints and you'll be impressed.

Indeed. I admit you speak the truth about my skillz. But I hope they can pull off what they're talking about as easy as they are saying it.

And I am eagerly in anticipation of these pros doing what in theory is very viable, doable, and even affordable.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Try dropping a colossi at someone's base. When? you ask. When do you think an colossi raid is good? Rushing it ofcourse.

But is it really viable? Is it a good strat?

edit: Oh, yeah. I've seen a FPVoD on youtube. It was a Korean tourney, and man those guys can play. Well, maybe this game was made for them.

[//MavericK\\]

While I'm just a Copper level player, I find that raiding expos is invaluable. It keeps the other player off balance and not quite sure what to expect. I think the best scenario is when you have the ability to harass a player's expo and his main at the same time. This forces him to split his defenses and his attention. You make him choose which is more important...does he defend the expo and a continuous economy stream or the main, with all of its tech buildings and supplies?

Two drop ships, each loaded with a tank, a couple of marines and an scv is devastating if dropped behind a player's main mineral line. One or two Banshees as cover and it might even be a gg.

[Hammy]

So you mean dropship raiding? Or harassing in general? Hellions are used to harass to great effect, as are reapers in the early game. Zergling raids are very effective to backstab when your opponent's army is out of position.
What about blink stalkers jumping to high ground? Or tanks dropped on kulas ravine/LT naturals. HT warped in behind mineral lines?
Ever seen a thorship? (even post-patch thorships are good)
And viking raiding? Voidray/phoenix/muta/banshee harass?

All of the above are used outside of a "big army clash" situations.

Why do you only talk about collossi drops? The whole collossus concept is about moving up and down cliffs. Maybe it sucks that they aren't a viable harassing tool in warp prisms, but it's not like they're the only option. That argument makes zero sense...

Btw I wasn't at all trying to comment on your skill. I'm just saying that it's not because something doesn't work for a player once, that it's a bad strat. It's like when I try a great build but get owned just because I was paired against a much better player.