MULE’s and Mining

[ArcherofAiur]

The only acceptable status for the MULE is non-existent. The entire mechanic disgusts me to my core.

What dont you like about it? And lets have a real discussion this time. Dont just say its tedious. Talk about what the problem is and how it can be improved while maintaining macro for the Terrans.

[DemolitionSquid]

What dont you like about it? And lets have a real discussion this time. Dont just say its tedious. Talk about what the problem is and how it can be improved while maintaining macro for the Terrans.

The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection. That's not fun, that's busywork, which the pros may love but will ruin the game for everyone else. They provide no choice, no strategy.

The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true. Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge.

[Kimera757]

You need to click near the mineral line to call-down your MULE there.

Not really; you have a mini-map.

[ArcherofAiur]

The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection.

How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?

The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true.

What if we gave the MULE the ability to turn into a nuke and explode? Then would it still ALWAYS be used to mine. You can make a powerful ability to compete with extra minerals. I think free supply is a very good canidate.

Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge

I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.

Not really; you have a mini-map.

Do you know for a fact it is possible to call down MULEs with the mini-map?

[Kimera757]

How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?

Because people don't think at a constant rate.

I don't necessarily agree with Demolition Squid, but I understand his position. At its core, Proton Charge and MULEs simply recreate the mechanic of "busywork = resources" and people willing to bore themselves that way may get an unfair advantage, to the point that everyone may feel the need to do it (or, alternatively, complain that StarCraft II is no fun because if you don't do that busywork you will lose). I can't wait for beta, as I want to see if Demolition Squid's fears are unfounded, or if he's StarCraft II's Cassandra.

However, Spawn Larvae is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many queens (unlike obelisks and MULEs, queens actually take "supply" now), and spawning larvae is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the resources to morph them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the larvae. It isn't binary (either you get more resources or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's drones, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except overlords, of course).

I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.

With minerals, you can build a bunch of production structure, and replace losses more quickly. More minerals means you can expand more easily (you can get a town center up faster, you can more easily afford to lose an expansion, you can more easily afford to defend an expansion with static non-supply-costing structures, etc).

Do you know for a fact it is possible to call down MULEs with the mini-map?

I play Warcraft III. I'm pretty sure you can do that in WC III, and StarCraft II has an even better UI.

[DemolitionSquid]

How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?

I don't, and it probably will be. But its versatility is the important part. Spawn Larva is competing with the very needed Creep Tumor. Its also limited by the proximity of your Queen to a Hatchery, and the Hatchery itself. NYou can only have 7 larva at any given hatchery. Those Larva can become any, unit, building, or Drones to mine more resources, and you will need to use some for other purposes than mining. Those larva are competing with themselves for resources. They are versatile.

PC and MULE are not. Because they affect resource collection directly, they provide no choice. PC only affects Probes, and competes with two non-critical abilities. MULES are limited only by the energy you possess from your OC, and any abilities they are given, unless they are unbalanced, will not outweigh the potential they have to give you more resources for more permanent, more powerful troops.

What if we gave the MULE the ability to turn into a nuke and explode? Then would it still ALWAYS be used to mine. You can make a powerful ability to compete with extra minerals. I think free supply is a very good canidate.

If MULES were nukes it would be unbalanced, obviously. They would be used to mine until such time as they were needed to explode. MULES with Spider Mines would be used immediately to plant their mines, then be set off to go mine resources. It would not solve the problem that their ultimate purpose is to mine.

I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.

And that's the stupidest thing ever said on a SC forum. Without minerals, you wouldn't have production buildings. Minerals are THE single most important thing in the game. They are the alpha and the omega.

[ArcherofAiur]

However, Spawn Larvae is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many queens (unlike obelisks and MULEs, queens actually take "supply" now), and spawning larvae is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the resources to morph them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the larvae. It isn't binary (either you get more resources or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's drones, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except overlords, of course).

I am going to replace spawn larvae with MULE to show how the same can apply to mineral harvesting

"However, MULE is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many MULE (if we require permanant mules to take up supply which i support.), and minerals are pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the barracks to build them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the minerals. It isn't binary (either you get more larvae or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's SCV's, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except supply depots, of course)."

[Kimera757]

I am going to replace spawn larvae with MULE to show how the same can apply to mineral harvesting

Okay.

MULE is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things

Wait. What?

don't have the barracks to build them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into.

No. Huge difference.

It's not a good idea to save money in StarCraft, but you can save minerals if you don't know what to spend them on yet. Having a bunch of unspent minerals is bad, but not as bad as having no minerals.

This is not equivalent.

[ArcherofAiur]

And that's the stupidest thing ever said on a SC forum.

And a good day to you too sir.

Without minerals, you wouldn't have production buildings. Minerals are THE single most important thing in the game. They are the alpha and the omega.

Without production buildings (Command Center) you wouldnt have minerals. Kinda a chicken and egg thing aint it.

Even pros have trouble keeping up with their mineral usage in the late game. Also, production buildings dont just require minerals. They require commitment (back to base) and time.


Kimera757 are we in disagreement that minerals require choice on how to spend them? (and i meant to put minerals in that quote instead of MULE. My mistake)

[DemolitionSquid]

And a good day to you too sir.

Not my fault you're spewing nonsense.

Without production buildings (Command Center) you wouldnt have minerals. Kinda a chicken and egg thing aint it.

No, its not. You need the minerals. The minerals do not need you. Without minerals, there are no units, no buildings. Without units and buildings, there's still minerals. The minerals came first, fool. Just like the egg.

Even pros have trouble keeping up with their mineral usage in the late game. Also, production buildings dont just require minerals. They require commitment (back to base) and time.

As K757 said: too many minerals is better than no minerals.