The Danger of Expanding, and how to fix it

[protoswarrior]

LOL TRD!

You beat me to it

What TRD says is exactly it. It applied in BW. It applies in SC2 as well.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Yes, I see it now Rabid.

How do you build up your expansion, do you make scvs/drones/probes after you make military? It seems to me like anytime the opponent can push with his standing units, and vs Toss with a proxy, it's kinda hard to expand when he keeps pumping units and adding an additional 5th gate/SG/or Robo.

It seems that the best time to expand for Protoss is when your mineral line is already fully saturated. How about with Terran?

[don]

I'm #18 in copper now playing Protoss, would I reach plat if I just stopped expanding most of my games? As my mindset have been that I need to expand to win... now i'm thinking i might just get an advantage if I stop doing so most of my games.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Well, as Rabid pointed out, once that mass of units are out after the openings, and your attack forces seem to be equal or just a bit better than your opponent's defense, pull-back and drop a Nexus at your nat. Or better yet, drop the Nexus before you move out.

When you reach his base, say you are playing against yourself, your opponent (or in this case yourself) will have some more units and have better position.

Say vs Terran, he can drop three bunkers before you reach him and that would mean significant loses to you. He'll have say 30% units left, and if both of you rebuild your forces without expo, you'll have 100% and he'll have 130%.

If you fall back, you'll both have 100%. He doesn't expand, and make some more units for 2 and 1/2 minutes with the same production facilities he used to make his 100% forces, he'll have 200% units than you.

You're expo is up after 1:10, no probes yet, and his forces are at 150%. And while you're nexus has been warping for 1:10 you were able to make the additional 50% less the nexus expense. Which can be recovered by a fully saturated probe line in just 30 seconds.

So basically you are, by resource amount, 30 seconds less than his 150 seconds full unit production. However, by choosing the right unit to produce, you can still come ahead of him.

This 30 second amount of minerals, or training time, is one set of units from the total production facilities you have. Then the next 200 minerals you spend on 4 more probes, which yields +100-120 minerals per minute, etc etc.

The pay-off is when you get your expo at least half saturated, and with two gas, power units can be out in mass. It's a thin line, as Rabid points out, and require the proper unit choice, tech, etc., and more so when you can micro your units well in a battle.

Raids and harassments does so much, if only Protoss had some good harass unit options.

[TheRabidDeer]

Yes, I see it now Rabid.

How do you build up your expansion, do you make scvs/drones/probes after you make military? It seems to me like anytime the opponent can push with his standing units, and vs Toss with a proxy, it's kinda hard to expand when he keeps pumping units and adding an additional 5th gate/SG/or Robo.

It seems that the best time to expand for Protoss is when your mineral line is already fully saturated. How about with Terran?

I was under the impression that terran and zerg almost always FE. Zerg gets the benefit of more larva to use while terran gets another orbital command center (which is another scan or more resources, an OC pays for the expansion after 2 mules btw).

Protoss is a bit different, I dont expand based on military or workers, but more based on the situation. I expand when I think I can hold onto it. If I am playing vs T I might expand after my colossus + ranged upgrade is out, vs Z I might expand after I get a couple phoenix up. vs any race I might expand once I think I have "enough" units or production capability to not lose immediately afterwards.

Expanding as protoss is a huge gain though and can quickly lead to a 3rd base if your opponent is pretty passive or if the map allows it.

[keruya]

Actually I have played alot of PvP and for me it all goes to timing... Expanding and massing units that is. And the one that can successfully expand can double his income and can trifle with his opponent due to resource advantage.

[GnaReffotsirk]

I was under the impression that terran and zerg almost always FE. Zerg gets the benefit of more larva to use while terran gets another orbital command center (which is another scan or more resources, an OC pays for the expansion after 2 mules btw).

Protoss is a bit different, I dont expand based on military or workers, but more based on the situation. I expand when I think I can hold onto it. If I am playing vs T I might expand after my colossus + ranged upgrade is out, vs Z I might expand after I get a couple phoenix up. vs any race I might expand once I think I have "enough" units or production capability to not lose immediately afterwards.

Expanding as protoss is a huge gain though and can quickly lead to a 3rd base if your opponent is pretty passive or if the map allows it.

Zero idea regarding terran expo. All I know is that Zerg can expo or not and still hold an expo later. The danger of not taking the nat as Z is losing the necessary gas, and getting locked into that base. I feel the Zerg really needs to spend that 300, and due to the nature of Zerg not spending resource on gateways, barracks, etc, it would be so wrong not to build a hatch at the expo and control that area. It's like building the next two gateways at the Nat, only that you have the advantage of an option to produce units before the other races.

Zergs can mass lings before the 5:00 mark, but Protoss can only get 3-5 zeals at that point, and will cost him much probes needed to support its high cost units. Terrans can only make so many Rines. So, yeah, Zerg are built to Expo, and must then cope after that.

Zergs must at least delay the incoming T or P forces so he can produce the necessary counter. His econ would be as that with the other races, and if he spends more at this time frame, he's as good as dead against that initial wave. It's different with mirror matches. If you Expo Z vs Z, you'll get overrun with Roach/ling. Doesn't matter if you have Spines, if you did, you're way behind unit wise and roach/ling can just wipe the expoing Z.

But as Don said, for example at Blistering sands, you can do standard expo, since you can hold that nat choke with roach, followed bu 2-3 spines, with a wave of 12 roaches in 27 seconds. But in Steppes, it always seems good to go units first. It takes less than 27 seconds, I guess to reach the nat from your main, so wave after wave of roaches can just dance around there.

But yeah, this is both interesting and very loose. I always get overrun by another Zerg if I dedicate to Expo and econ in ZvZ.

Actually I have played alot of PvP and for me it all goes to timing... Expanding and massing units that is. And the one that can successfully expand can double his income and can trifle with his opponent due to resource advantage.

Yeah, in my PvP experience, if my opponent Proxies and dedicates to military production, it's GG if I try to expo. That additional two warpgates or additional Robo will end me just as I put down that nexus. I can surely FF, but having 5 sentries won't cut you the slack to equal his forces. He can also have +1 and attack with +1 attack and half the armor upgrade done. It's a hard choice, but it's mirror, maybe things work differently with mirror matches.

[keruya]

It really all goes to timing thats why i always get robo vs pvp because of the observers much safer expanding if you can see what your opponent in doing

[//MavericK\\]

The problem that you run into is that if you're not expanding...then most likely the other guy is. Especially with Zerg. And that can get dangerous for you really fast. It means you have more potential targets to go after, splitting your attention and your forces.

Now, I tend to use another player's expoing to my advantage.

I allow the opposing player to blow resources on an expo or two and right as the player either transfers workers to the expo or builds five or six there, I then punch at them as much as possible. While I'm tearing into his expos, I usually expand to my natural or build a CC in my main and fly it to a more secured mineral patch. One that is walled-in by rocks or an island.

You have to expand and its best to do this, I've found, while your attacking the other guy. He's too busy defending his expos to scout and attack yours. You can't run an effective economy...safely...with only one economy source.

[PraetorKoronis]

I think that weak static defenses also play a part in this dilemma. You almost always have to have an army comparable to your opponents to stay alive. You can't invest in meaningful strategically placed static defenses to help protect earlier expansions. The lack of a high ground advantage is also a big factor. This means your army HAS to be as big at your opponents at all times.

Not necessarily, chokes can still held by sieving units in and out. For example, having air removes all pathing, crowding, and blocking issues--units like colossi also solve that problem because they can go over ledges.

However, it's been debated heavily whether or not a defender that has buildings in the way of his choke really has an advantage or not late game--often times, your opponent will get vision up the ramp/choke, form a concave, and then obliterate you. Your units will only be able to attack a few at a time because there are buildings in the way.