Game speed uped in patch 11? Is it a good thing?

[Wankey]

So, that explains why my heart beats like crazy now in game. Things just happen so fast!

[GnaReffotsirk]

So, that explains why my heart beats like crazy now in game. Things just happen so fast!

Indeed, but I'm not finding it fun.

It's almost exhausting to be honest.

[Wankey]

So that there can be a higher skill ceiling.

So by your logic, Speed chess has more skilled players than regular chess. You make decisions faster!

[Rigby]

Just for the non believers . Check out the latest finals in G4SC2 .. Hasuobs vs OKBrat. How come midd game both of these pro's are struggling to spend their minerals. They have between 1000-2000 minerald sitting around while not even maxed in the units . They busy microying but unable to macro and spend their resources. This has never happened before the patch. You wouldn't expect that pro players have resources unspend. Just alone this will prove some here that the speed is not fine at the moment.

[Wankey]

Yeah the game speed seems a bit fast. What they really need to do is simply increase all acceleration and deceleration by 4% and return gamespeed to faster.

[Gradius]

You're in trouble if your only way of fostering skilled play is speeding up the game

Have you ever seen anyone complain that the pieces in Tetris fall down too fast with each level, making it so that only skilled players can reach high levels? Imagine what the world would be like if there were people of varying skill levels, and only those who could perform the best would succeed. What a travesty, right? ;P

Well, this isn't kindergarten, and it turns out that you can't actually "be whoever you want to be," and there are in fact going to be losers. I'd like to think that I could be as good as Jaedong if I just worked hard enough, but that's just not in the cards is it?

As far as StarCraft is concerned, there comes a point where after learning all the counters and build orders that everyone can compete at roughly the same skill level unless they're constrained by mechanical limits, such that inserting a plethora of more tactics and options into the game will make it a smorgasbord of near-random decisions, instead of a truly competitive game in nature. Such is the challenge with designing a game like StarCraft, and increasing the game speed is one of the ways to raise the skill ceiling and counteract things like MBS.

So by your logic, Speed chess has more skilled players than regular chess. You make decisions faster!

Only if you totally misunderstand what skill ceiling is, then sure. Playing a harder game does not make whoever is playing that game more skilled. Speed chess has more room for improvement at the highest levels than chess because it is played faster; that's what is actually meant by skill ceiling.

[Maxa]

Have you ever seen anyone complain that the pieces in Tetris fall down too fast with each level, making it so that only skilled players can reach high levels? Imagine what the world would be like if there were people of varying skill levels, and only those who could perform the best would succeed. What a travesty, right? ;P

I'm not sure where you're getting this egalitarian tack; the "kindergarten" bit in particular is a bizarre digression. Nowhere did I suggest that SC2 should made so that everyone effectively plays equally well. But there are good ways to encourage "skilled" play, and then there are bad ways. Simply hiking the game speed, particularly for an real time strategy game, is a bad a way.

The animating spirit of RTS games is strategic decision making. If your only way of raising making an RTS challenging is to make it unreasonably fast (that is, to encourage speed rather than strategy), that strongly suggests that the game lacks depth. The reason that Tetris involves unlimited acceleration is that it is ultimately quite a simple game. Very few people would describe Tetris as deeply strategic, since there are very few options for the placement of any block; this is why increasing difficulty in Tetris is predicated on making it a speed game. Starcraft clearly is not meant to emulate Tetris in this regard, nor should it.

[Gradius]

I'm not sure where you're getting this egalitarian tack; the "kindergarten" bit in particular is a bizarre digression. Nowhere did I suggest that SC2 should made so that everyone effectively plays equally well. But there are good ways to encourage "skilled" play, and then there are bad ways. Simply hiking the game speed, particularly for an real time strategy game, is a bad a way.

Likewise I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that hiking up the game's speed is blizzard's only way to make the game challenging - that was neither said nor implied by anybody. It is a tool that should be utilized however. Why is adjusting the mechanical skill needed to play the game off-limits in the beta again? Complaining about these things is kind of arbitrary don't you think? Or do you claim that what it was before was the "perfect" speed?

The animating spirit of RTS games is strategic decision making. If your only way of raising making an RTS challenging is to make it unreasonably fast (that is, to encourage speed rather than strategy), that strongly suggests that the game lacks depth. The reason that Tetris involves unlimited acceleration is that it is ultimately quite a simple game. Very few people would describe Tetris as deeply strategic, since there are very few options for the placement of any block; this is why increasing difficulty in Tetris is predicated on making it a speed game. Starcraft clearly is not meant to emulate Tetris in this regard, nor should it.

You're mistaken if you think StarCraft shouldn't be a mechanical game. Mechanical limits, such as unit micro, and even game speed are what made StarCraft so great - when you saw pro-gamers pull off stuff that no mere mortal could seemingly do. And honestly, the amount of "strategy" involved in a game like StarCraft is minuscule. After you learn basic counters, it's mechanical play that is rewarded more. That's why people spend hours perfecting tactics, not strategy, i.e. practicing variations on timing, micro, macro and even finding various ways to increase APM. Want strategy? Play Supreme Commander or some other RTS. Like it or not, StarCraft is partly a speed game. You can call it a problem, I call it a feature.

[Rigby]

So gradius it doesn't bother you that even pro's have difficulty spending their resources by mid game? I mentioned it before but check the latest replays from G4SC2 finals and you will see these top players are struggling with macro and micro . And these players have like 200 APM . In my opinion faster thinking not faster clicking should reward a good player .

Why do you think Geramito (hope i spelled this Korean dudes name right) said that finally sc2 will reward players who can think out of the box. I like the beginning of the game when players harrass and come up with wicked strats , like drops and so on . Anyways i prefer the skirmish battles to max armies.

[newcomplex]

I tested this under the same thread in Teamliquid.

it is EXACTLY the same, moving two probes across the map, one in old replay, the other not.

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The animating spirit of RTS games is strategic decision making. If your only way of raising making an RTS challenging is to make it unreasonably fast (that is, to encourage speed rather than strategy), that strongly suggests that the game lacks depth.

A balanced strategy game that can foster a long lasting competitive community is a feat accomplished twice in History, Go and Chess. A balanced real time strategy game is by definition, impossible. A real time strategy game is a game based on 100% metagaming, and in order to require solely skill, and not luck, one must be able to predict your opponents possible moves with 100% precision. In real time strategy games, this is impossible due to insufficient time between player inputs.