Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?

[Norfindel]

Tldr tldr tldr tldr

[unentschieden]

his suggestions were to make it able to base harass

and maybe we are looking at this wrong, maybe hellions are an upgrade of firebats, and reapers are the vultures (exept vultures shoot soda cans)

Actually we should look at the units in the SC2 Context not the SC:BW one. OP would have a point if Wings of Liberty was the 2nd Starcraft addon (the most delayed addon in History!).
The fundamental problem with the OP is that he want´s Micro not only to increase Unit efficiency but to completely break the counteringstructure. "But thats what made SC:BW so good!"
SC:BW accomplished Racial balance after a LOOONG iterative balancing process that included the acceptance of Bugs/Glitches. Units are worthless (Scout, SC1 Queen...).
My point is that SC:BW balance at THIS point is not the result of a beta process and should not serve as example for the SC2 Betastage. When WoL goes Gold every unit should be valid and every "Microtrick" a feature not a tolerated Glitch.

[InpuBot]

i think we should still give some air units moving shot and change the rcon mechanics

[dingdongs]

When WoL goes Gold every unit should be valid and every "Microtrick" a feature not a tolerated Glitch.

^^this

[Aldrius]

and maybe we are looking at this wrong, maybe hellions are an upgrade of firebats, and reapers are the vultures (exept vultures shoot soda cans)

I've been looking at it that way for a long time. The Hellion is not the Vulture. It's the Firebat in a fast-moving mechanical buggy.

The way that phoenix deals with light units is troublesome, no effective way to kill masses of light air (like mutas, or even vikings. Which seem to kill off phoenixes well enough). Attack animation is a serious problem (gone are the days of even Wraith/Scout missiles), rather slow turning radius, limited use of grav beam (can't seem to use in only phoenix groups, has to be used as disable support for main army), mehs all around.

Everything you just said isn't even remotely true. Phoenix in low numbers use Graviton Beam as crowd control for a Protoss army, but later on when you have more Phoenix, you can use Graviton Beam in Phoenix-only groups. And of course early-on it can be used for harass. And they have an effective way of killing Mutalisks and Vikings... attacking them. The game lies, though. The Phoenix isn't a 'hard counter' in the same way say the Hellion kills Zerglings. It's fairly soft, but I think that's more intended to mirror the tier 1 relationships. Their stats may need a tweak (I honestly think they need an armor point), but from a design perspective they're a perfectly acceptable unit.

And the attack animation? Are you just talking about the art there? Because I vastly prefer the blue lasers to the Scout's missile attack.

[TheEconomist]

It's amazing how, even after beta release, a QQ topic is guaranteed so much attention.

[Operatoring]

I love turn-based strategy games. Civilization and Galactic Civilizations are among my favorite games.

However, that does not mean that an RTS should be entirely tactics based, like the recent Dawn of War and Company of Heroes games have been. Those are not strategy games, they are RTTs.

The melding of strategy and tactics can be done rather well, as evidenced by Age of Empires, Supreme Commander, and others. I enjoy those games, because while I find the pure focus on tactics to be tedious, I do not find them entirely worthless, which is why I still play RTS games to this day.

There are still plenty of opportunities for micro in SC2, obviously not as many as there were in SC1. Me, personally, I prefer that. I like maneuvering my units but I don't like having it be so consuming that it takes away from my strategy.

What strategies are there in SC? Rush or Tech. Pressure or Economy. Offense or Defense. Strategy is boring in most respects. How you go about seeing your Strategies out is exciting. This is what E-Sports are made of.

Again, that is purely my opinion. However, I do still stand by the assertion that unlimited unit selection, auto-rally, and MBS are things that should not even be considered for removal. How would removing them improve gameplay? There's a difference between clicking for tactics and clicking merely because the game engine hasn't caught up with modern times and you have to manually tell your workers to mine.

No one mentioned this.

and for your childish attempts to belittle my accomplishments, allow me to rebuttal: there are just as many people who believe Total Annihilation is the best RTS game ever made, and you'll find that its focus on tactics is considerably less than SC1s. But if your views are so narrow as to resort to such means to attempt to get your point across, I don't even know why I bother. I'm done in here.)

This isn't Total Annihilation. This is SC2.

I appreciate how much effort the guy put into this write-up, but I disagree strongly with lots and lots of things he said. He contradicts himself numerous times and doesn't really make a coherent point. Look at this:



That's why he thinks Brood War air is perfect. Risk vs. reward. Two lines down:



So, wait. Brood War air is perfect because the Corsair can actually have zero risk in engaging a similar-sized army, and minimal risk in engaging a larger-sized one?

No. He says in SC2, there is no reward for controlling your units well. No matter how good you are with a Phoenix, you will always take damage when you try to attack. This means, no matter how skilled you are, the larger force will almost always win out, even if you use your units better.

Wait, but didn't you just say that BW is good because of risk vs. reward? Sounds to me like if attempting to pick off buildings is idiotic, the risk is too high... which means the risk vs. reward ratio is completely freaking borked. And this is the ideal system he's comparing SC2 to, again?

Reading comprehension ftw! He is saying that air units commit to taking damage every time they attack. No matter how well you control them, you will always take damage. In SC1, the Risk v Reward was there. You took a risk and bet on your skills in attacking and backing away before being hit. If you were skillful enough, you got away with it. If you miscalculated, you didn't. SC2 doesn't have this. And he's right.

Moreover, consider what he calls "perfect control of air units." The ability to not have to stand and fight, but rather fire off a volley and tell your units to leave right away, so they take no damage. It's a very interesting definition because (little to) no ground units in the game share it. Let's say Marauders are trashing a Protoss expansion when a bunch of Stalkers show up. Now according to the author, Stalkers would have "perfect control" if and only if you were able to swoop in, get some free hits, and run away before taking any damage EVEN IF his force significantly outnumbered yours. Until attacking ground bases with ground units would be considered idiotic.

No, he said some units should have it and some shouldn't. There are no ground units that can be Microed with complete control like the Vulture, Archon, Drone, etc.

Now how idiotic is that?

Reading comprehension.

Apart from that I agree with some of his more random ideas, and disagree with others. He talks about the Viking at length but doesn't note its ridiculous range, which actually allows it to do exactly what he asks for -- attack units without fear of reprisal -- as long as you micro well with it.

He doesn't ask for this. He says the Viking wouldn't need the range if it could be controlled better. Having an animation that lasts as long as the cooldown on your attack is what he is talking about. Learn to read man.

But to say that that is the problem with all air units in the game I think is a gross misunderstanding of the issue.

No, you misunderstand.

Actually we should look at the units in the SC2 Context not the SC:BW one. OP would have a point if Wings of Liberty was the 2nd Starcraft addon (the most delayed addon in History!).
The fundamental problem with the OP is that he want´s Micro not only to increase Unit efficiency but to completely break the counteringstructure. "But thats what made SC:BW so good!"
SC:BW accomplished Racial balance after a LOOONG iterative balancing process that included the acceptance of Bugs/Glitches. Units are worthless (Scout, SC1 Queen...).
My point is that SC:BW balance at THIS point is not the result of a beta process and should not serve as example for the SC2 Betastage. When WoL goes Gold every unit should be valid and every "Microtrick" a feature not a tolerated Glitch.

The countering structure is currently a joke. You are rewarded for building more of the right unit than how you ACTUALLY use the unit. I hope this changes, or SC1 will continue to be the last vestige of E-Sports.

[sandwich_bird]

And another typical article from tl.net. How nice. Also with the typical comments like :

I totally fucking agree with this, and I think EVERYONE will too.

How many people actually are hardcore SC1 players that believe in this? How many would disagree? I would love to see the statistics.

[ArcherofAiur]

And another typical article from tl.net. How nice. Also with the typical comments like :



How many people actually are hardcore SC1 players that believe in this? How many would disagree? I would love to see the statistics.

Allot apparently.

[Operatoring]

The loss of the moving shot is just another example of the glass ceiling turning to brick and being lowered.