force fields.

[whitefire]

I real alot on the beta forums that force field is op and I think this is total bull it has counters. Roach burrow movement and ventral sacs are two. mutas, brood lords, nydus worm, transports of all kinds, siege tanks, vikings, nukes, banshees BCs, VRs, carriers, infested terran ect... Heaven forbid a spell forces people to micro. The spell can also backfire because it prevents zealots from attacking anything on the other side. Heres a tactic to use if they block a ramp with it how bout a drop. alot of zerg complain about it so heres what you do you get ventral sacs and trop a force into the enemy base and hide them with burrow while you bring in a worm if the enemy finds the worm you unburrow and protect the worm 20 seconds later you have a beach head and can now funnel units past the choke right into their production.

[Mandilorordo]

The argument you make that force field isn't OP is a defiantly a debatable one. However I'm going to overlook it and ask how the hell did you come up with nydus worm and ventral sacs as a direct counter to force field? That's like saying banelings are a good counter to brak wall ins. Sure they'll get threw there eventually if you through enough of them at the wall but it's just not practical.

[whitefire]

if you cant go through the forcefield then you go over it and nydus like forcefield dictates where the enemy has to fight. I saw a ZvP once and the zerg was completely shut down because of a forcefield at his ramp if he had invested in roach burrow movement or venteral sacks he could have bypassed the FF and saved his expansion and possible launched an imeadiate counter attack. I see alot of replays with zerg just having their overlords just sit there. maybe a handful to scout and become overseers. Forcefield is a move that limits mobility and venteral sacs and nydus are moves that drastically increase mobility.

[Mandilorordo]

Oh I see, you're making the argument force field isn't OP when it comes to base wall offs I thought the general argument was that it is OP when it is use in a fight where the protos uses it just shove the enemy around and basically chose who he is going to fight and where.

[Aerith]

Force Field has so many uses. It is definitely OP in my book.

You can use it for basically everything. Hell I'm waiting for someone to think of a way to use it that disrupts economy (well you can if you force field someone's minerals).

Offense - Stop enemy melee units in their tracks. Stop enemy reinforcements when fighting at nat.

Defense - Block your ramp to get a few more units out. Stop an early zealot or ling rush.

Tactical - Stop ranged units from attacking. Force them to run around.

Psi Storm - More exposure if units have to run through a choke and back.

[whitefire]

like Marauders. Emp is a spell that counters an entire race and that could be considered op. I think its because people use blob armies and in a blob on blob fight the forcefield will rule. People need to start using other tactics besides the blob. Emp should be an effective counter to sentries siege tanks will totall decimate in an FF situation. Fungal growth stops melle fighters in their tracks, prevents harass revieals cloacked and burrowed units so it has offensive, defensive and tactical uses too. infested terrans can be used for almost anything. Boosting the dps of your army, emergency anti air, harassment, being a meatshield not to mention that they do more dps that roaches. the toss has to use it because they are almost always out numbered. The zerg have burrow. ya its expensive and takes forever to get but it opens up a multitude of tactical options the zerg dont have with out it.

[DesertRose]

Every race has one or more spells which can completly change the outcome of a battle. The reason why most complains are about Force Field and EMP is because both spells are available very early during a game (Sentry is T1.5, Ghost is T1.5-2), while relatively few games take long enough that spells like Seeker Missle or Neural Parasite comes into play.
From my point of understanding Protoss units are weaker resources-wise compared to the units of the two other races but stronger per square an unit occupies; this implies that Protoss loses while fighting in an open field, but wins on choke points. To compensate this weakness Protoss has Force Field, which effectively creates temporary choke points.
Imo Force Field is fine in the early and mid game because it allows Protoss to play aggressively relatively early, but becomes too powerful when you can have plenty of Sentrys around so you're not only able to create temporary choke points but completly block off units even on open space.

A possible fix could be (presuming FF has a radius of 2, not sure) to disallow placement of another FF within a radius of 3 as long as the first FF is still active; meaning between two FF will always be at least one free square where units can walk through. This change will have the following consequences:
1. Greater punishment for bady placed FF: E.g. if your first FF don't block off a small ramp completly you cannot simply invest additional 50 energy to block the ramp with an additional FF but you have to deal with that the ramp isn't completly blocked off the next 15 seconds.
2. Infinite ramp block harder to pull off: Because you have to recast FF the second it runs out instead of recasting it a few seconds before it would have ended.
3. Unable to seperate armies and kill them one after the other: Because they is still a small passage between two FF you can still engage or flee, but on a slower rate than without FF.

[Phoenix]

Force-fields are powerful, but you have to remember what casts them; Sentries.

Sentries have incredibly low HP/cost (most Protoss units have low HP/cost). This coupled with the fact that they only have a range of 5 means, without proper micro, they will be in the front line of your ranged units (Immortals beside them, Sentries and even un-upgraded Colossus behind them).

Land Units that outrange Sentries (to take them down when they cast FF, or to take them down from behind a FF wall):
- Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor
- Hydralisk, Infestor

Infestors can even fungal growth an upgraded Colossus (+ any units near it) at the Colossus' max range. Add in Banshees or late tech like Brood Lords and the FF becomes little more than a nuisance.

The only race that is really outmatched by FF is T1 Zerg. Otherwise good micro can beat good FF micro.

===

2. Infinite ramp block harder to pull off: Because you have to recast FF the second it runs out instead of recasting it a few seconds before it would have ended.

Why would you constantly block the ramp off anyways (unless you're trying to deny high-ground sight to siege tanks)?

After 1 block off you should have a few troops (Stalker/Sentry preferably if the opponent is using ranged) and if they are foolish enough to run headlong into the ramp you can cut off the first handful of troops with your 2nd FF. If they keep running towards your base, away from their support behind the FF you can pick them off, and if they stay near the FF you can try to pick some off (or lure them) with your ranged reinforcements.

If someone keeps walling off with Sentries use the same techniques you use to get behind Terran walls (other than direct attacks):
- Mutalisk / Banshee / Void Ray
- Brood Lord / Siege tank / Colossus
- Overlord / Medivac / Warp Prism death-drops
- Nydas worms
- Let the FF player contain (his/her)self; expand and beat him/her economically until you have Brood Lords / Siege tanks / Colossi

[Nicol Bolas]

saw a ZvP once and the zerg was completely shut down because of a forcefield at his ramp if he had invested in roach burrow movement or venteral sacks he could have bypassed the FF and saved his expansion and possible launched an imeadiate counter attack.

Overlord drop and Roach burrowed movement both cost 250/250 and a fairly long time to research. They also both require a Lair. Sentries come for free with FF, and they come well before your Lair is finished.

Land Units that outrange Sentries (to take them down when they cast FF, or to take them down from behind a FF wall):
- Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor
- Hydralisk, Infestor

You're assuming that the Sentry is sitting directly behind their FF, rather than well out of range. You also forget that FFs can cut an army in half, allowing you to attack half of it with the other having stuck too far away to help.

Also, for the Zerg, Lair tech.

Why would you constantly block the ramp off anyways (unless you're trying to deny high-ground sight to siege tanks)?

He's talking about blocking off your ramp. This either:

1: Keeps you entirely contained unless you tech for air.

2: Keeps your army on high ground (ie: units you're producing now) from reaching your low ground army. No reinforcements means that your strength is split.

[GRUNT]

Overlord drop and Roach burrowed movement both cost 250/250 and a fairly long time to research.

They're both cheaper than you think . Tunneling Claws is 150/150 and Ventral Sacs is 200/200 .

That said, they are still rather expensive :[.