Zerg were better off with the Overmind

[newcomplex]

The Overmind is supposed to be everywhere. It is a part of all of the Zerg. The actions of the Swarm are the action of the Overmind, just as the actions of your arm are your actions.

That's why the whole "talking with the Overmind" stuff was a big, fat load of fail.

I'm not specifically denying this, but how can you claim this while deriding Gladdos, who plays the same role?

[Aldrius]

The Idiot Ball is a plot device. It is used when you need something to happen that would only happen if one or more persons act like idiots.

I know what you meant by idiot ball, but honestly, that's one of those pages on TV Tropes I hate. "oh no, a character is acting stupid, and even though what he's actually doing is completely consistent with his pattern of behaviour, and completely consistent with how he was established... THIS IS BAD WRITING. Because he's not acting like an unfeeling, pragmatic robot."

Plenty of good plotlines involve somebody being an idiot and it NOT being bad writing. I take issue with a lot of examples on that page.

Perhaps, but it has no place in anything you want to be taken seriously.

Plenty of famous well-respect movies and literature have exaggerated caricatures in the story. Usually in supporting or villainous roles, but they still exist none-the-less.

Usually in comedies, though, come to think of it. But in some more dramatic productions as well. Darth Malak for example, is 90% caricature, but I think he's a pretty well-written one as well.

For instance, what did the Overmind gain by being on Aiur before conquering it?

It was something that involved the process of assimilating the Protoss into the swarm. We don't specifically know what.

Or what about the whole Protoss civil war? Even if the Conclave was a bunch of racist whackjobs, how did they convince the legions of Protoss warriors to go after Tassadar in the midst of an invasion of their home planet?

Propaganda? The usual government tools one uses to convince their population of doing something stupid?

Plus Aldaris tells you that the war against the Zerg is going well. And until Tassadar comes back, you don't hear any differently.

And what about how Fenix and Raynor got caught with no contingency plan when Kerrigan betrayed them despite having previously discussed amongst themselves that Kerrigan could not be trusted and was bound to betray them once they served their purpose?

They didn't count on her betraying them on Korhal. They figured they were safe until Char. They were obviously wrong, and I'm sure on some level they expected that, but honestly, what COULD they do about it? They want to take out the UED. Teaming up with Kerrigan is the best way of doing that.

Calculated risk that backfired.

[Nicol Bolas]

Plenty of good plotlines involve somebody being an idiot and it NOT being bad writing. I take issue with a lot of examples on that page.

There is a difference between character-induced idiocy and plot-induced idiocy. With characters, it flows naturally from who they are. With plots, it doesn't.

I might be able to accept that Aldaris is just a massive bigot and idiot. But the things he does are so off-the-wall brain-dead that it strains credibility that he could ever rise to a position of power, let alone to the head of the Conclave.

For example, I could buy that Aldaris, once detecting Kerrigan's influence over the Matriarch, decided to rebel rather than peacefully waiting for Artanis's return. However, what I don't buy is that he doesn't even bother to talk to Artanis once they return. Artanis is one of his guys. And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.

They didn't count on her betraying them on Korhal. They figured they were safe until Char.

Why? That makes no sense at all. They should have considered their alliance terminated the instant that Kerrigan no longer needed them.

They were obviously wrong, and I'm sure on some level they expected that, but honestly, what COULD they do about it? They want to take out the UED. Teaming up with Kerrigan is the best way of doing that.

What could they do about it? How about leave immediately after? How about turn their guns on Kerrigan the second that they no longer need her?

I could see Raynor not wanting to do that, but Mengsk? Come on; he's already kicked her to the curb once.

[mr. peasant]

There is a difference between character-induced idiocy and plot-induced idiocy. With characters, it flows naturally from who they are. With plots, it doesn't.

I might be able to accept that Aldaris is just a massive bigot and idiot. But the things he does are so off-the-wall brain-dead that it strains credibility that he could ever rise to a position of power, let alone to the head of the Conclave.

For example, I could buy that Aldaris, once detecting Kerrigan's influence over the Matriarch, decided to rebel rather than peacefully waiting for Artanis's return. However, what I don't buy is that he doesn't even bother to talk to Artanis once they return. Artanis is one of his guys. And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.

I think lore-wise, Artanis shot first, upon being ordered to by Raszagal. Either way, the question remains why didn't whoever started the fight at least try to talk first?

It was something that involved the process of assimilating the Protoss into the swarm. We don't specifically know what.

What difference would it have made between charging alongside the first wave and hanging back until most of the fighting was over? The fact that no real, substantial reason was given is what's making it seem like the Overmind was carrying the idiot ball on that part.

They didn't count on her betraying them on Korhal. They figured they were safe until Char. They were obviously wrong, and I'm sure on some level they expected that, but honestly, what COULD they do about it? They want to take out the UED. Teaming up with Kerrigan is the best way of doing that.

Calculated risk that backfired.

The whole point about betraying someone is to get them when they least suspect it. And the point of preparing for one is to be able to pull said fail safe at any point. Moreover, they didn't need to ally with Kerrigan in the first place. They could have easily laid low for awhile while reestablishing contact with the Protoss fleets.

[newcomplex]

Nicol, they have no real precedent for terminating there relationship, sure, theres right to be suspicious, but she claims she is free of the Overminds influences. Why Kerrigan would decide to betray them all of her own volition isn't something they would have predicted.

And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.

I think the case here is really because the missions themselves were an over exaggeration of the events that transpired. We know gameplay are not actually what happened, but rather representations of what happened. If you look at it from this light, Aldarus probably wasn't engaged in an all out war, which would make sense, but rather he seized control of the warbands loyal to him and sought to capture Zeratul and Artanis when they were returning, who would naturally resist arrest.

The gameplay itself portrays it as an epic battle that could have lasted days, but we've seen repeatedly that the gameplay of a mission does not match up with scale it actually happened on. In actuality it could have been a battle that lasted a few hours, where neither side could communicate due to the chaos, quickly ending once Zeratuls forced were able to break the line and talk to Aldaris.

[Aldrius]

I think lore-wise, Artanis shot first, upon being ordered to by Raszagal. Either way, the question remains why didn't whoever started the fight at least try to talk first?

Because Aldaris is a jerk. He rebelled against the Dark Templar knowing that their matriarch was mind controlled. He's never been one for diplomacy, I don't know if you've noticed.

What difference would it have made between charging alongside the first wave and hanging back until most of the fighting was over? The fact that no real, substantial reason was given is what's making it seem like the Overmind was carrying the idiot ball on that part.

It was so he could be made manifest upon the world. Why? Because it made him more powerful and it was a key step in assimilating the Protoss. He says as much in Zerg missions 9 and 10.

Why doesn't he wait? Maybe he can't. Or maybe he doesn't want to wait.

The whole point about betraying someone is to get them when they least suspect it. And the point of preparing for one is to be able to pull said fail safe at any point.

What's your point? They'd just finished wiping out a key UED staging point. They believe Kerrigan's being pragmatic. Mengsk and Raynor both think Kerrigan has no reason to betray them just yet. Even though Korhals out of the way, Char is still a powerful UED stronghold, and both Mengsk and Raynor believe Kerrigan is practical to the point that she won't be so wasteful as to betray them before Char's been dealt with.

Moreover, they didn't need to ally with Kerrigan in the first place. They could have easily laid low for awhile while reestablishing contact with the Protoss fleets.

The Protoss armada was in TOTAL disarray. They could not 'lay low for a while'. The UED was there and cracking down on the sector. They didn't really have time to wait.

For example, I could buy that Aldaris, once detecting Kerrigan's influence over the Matriarch, decided to rebel rather than peacefully waiting for Artanis's return. However, what I don't buy is that he doesn't even bother to talk to Artanis once they return. Artanis is one of his guys. And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.

He thinks Artanis is a naive child. It's got nothing to do with him fearing that he might be mind-controlled by Kerrigan so much as he's bitter and thinks they're all morons for trusting her.

Why? That makes no sense at all. They should have considered their alliance terminated the instant that Kerrigan no longer needed them.

They sort of did. Because the point she no longer needed them was on Braxis. (Mission 2) Not on Korhal (Mission 5). Once she got her broods back upon the Psi Disruptor's destruction. She was just being opportunistic by keeping them around for Korhal.

What could they do about it? How about leave immediately after? How about turn their guns on Kerrigan the second that they no longer need her?

I could see Raynor not wanting to do that, but Mengsk? Come on; he's already kicked her to the curb once.

He's just restablished his own base of operations. And as established by "True Colours" even with Fenix's help, he didn't have the armada to take on Kerrigan's broods. A preemptive strike would not serve him that well.

Kerrigan just caught them all at a moment of vulnerability. And Mengsk couldn't just leave. It's HIS planet. The only reason he even associated himself with Kerrigan at all was to retake it.

[mr. peasant]

Because Aldaris is a jerk. He rebelled against the Dark Templar knowing that their matriarch was mind controlled. He's never been one for diplomacy, I don't know if you've noticed.

Precisely. In other words, while it does move the plot as needed, Aldaris was not struck with plot-induced stupidity (a.k.a. he's not holding the Idiot Ball) since his actions were perfectly in keeping with his character.

It was so he could be made manifest upon the world. Why? Because it made him more powerful and it was a key step in assimilating the Protoss. He says as much in Zerg missions 9 and 10.

Why doesn't he wait? Maybe he can't. Or maybe he doesn't want to wait.

So, a timeless, seemingly all-knowing entity who had been on a quest lasting hundreds of years couldn't wait a couple more months? Even if it can be justified by one of us, the lack of in-game explanation for a strategically stupid though awesome development in the plot is a classic example of using the rule of cool over common sense.

The Protoss armada was in TOTAL disarray. They could not 'lay low for a while'. The UED was there and cracking down on the sector. They didn't really have time to wait.

The UED did not seem aware of Shakuras. Moreover, teaming up with your allies, even if slightly weaker, is a far more sensible thing to do than teaming up with the person who you know will at some point decide to kill you. Teaming up with your sworn enemy is classically only done when you've exhausted all other options and have no more allies to turn to. It's not supposed to be the first course of action.

[pure.Wasted]

No, I still don't buy this idea that just because of one requirement that characters need to be loyal to a cause will make the story "predictably uninteresting". Nobody has presented any evidence that this is true.

I believe I've at least made the attempt:

Are the 10 different Zerg going to each have their own motivations for sticking with Kerrigan? I highly doubt that those motivations are going to be any more nuanced than "they got infested." [Nicol's proposed] on-the-job conflicts are absolutely inconsequential. Compare that to the situation aboard the Hyperion... Matt Horner's trying to play the good guy all these four years while Jim's making love to the bottle, suddenly Tychus and Gabe come aboard and are able to exert all this influence over Jimmy. 10 missions into this campaign, Matt Horner says "When you told me how Mengsk betrayed you for personal gain, I felt for you. But now I really know what that must have been like. I'm outta here." Up and leaves. That's it, no more Matt Horner on the Hyperion.

Sounds like an emotional turning point for Raynor, right? A turning point achieved through the execution of Matt Horner's free will as a character. Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do. If Stukov or Ethan Stewart are any indication, free will -- the sort of free will that Kerrigan is oh-so-known for exhibiting -- just isn't an option for other Zerg.

Let's say Ethan Stewart and Stukov get in a fight over how best to do Kerrigan's bidding. Stukov ends up becoming a calculating, manipulative bastard, while Stewart becomes a completely up-front psychopath.

Do either of these things mean anything for anyone else? No. Stukov's development has no way of affecting anyone but himself. Likewise for Stewart's. Kerrigan isn't going to look at the two of them and say to herself, "My God, what have I done? I need to become a good person!"

That's what I meant when I said that on-the-job conflicts are inconsequential. They are completely, wholly limited to affecting the character that is being "developed." That's just piss-poor drama.

If you have examples on how this could be handled differently... taking into account that the Overmind is supposedly back, overseeing everything from the very top... I'd love to hear them.

[Aldrius]

So, a timeless, seemingly all-knowing entity who had been on a quest lasting hundreds of years couldn't wait a couple more months? Even if it can be justified by one of us, the lack of in-game explanation for a strategically stupid though awesome development in the plot is a classic example of using the rule of cool over common sense.

Well, they kinda shift their language a lot in those scenes. Sometimes the Overmind says "I will manifest upon this world" and other times he says "I will be made manifest."

If it's truly the former, then he's just moving planets. Going from Char (where he's more vulnerable) to Aiur. (Where he's... not as vulnerable.) Otherwise, the Overmind manifesting itself probably increased the power of the Zerg Swarm. (He mentions the Khaydarin Crystal possesses power unimagined by the Protoss) It was probably part of the reason they had such an easy time taking over Aiur.

It's always been kinda vague whether or not the Overmind took physical form for the first time on Aiur or not. I tend to think he didn't just because they grew a new one in Brood War.

The UED did not seem aware of Shakuras.

So what? Raynor and Fenix are just going to go and hide? They don't even know where Shakuras is either. (And I refuse to buy the new lore that they've went hiding out there in between the Brood War Protoss and Terran campaigns. That doesn't make any sense.)

Moreover, teaming up with your allies, even if slightly weaker, is a far more sensible thing to do than teaming up with the person who you know will at some point decide to kill you.

They don't KNOW that she's going to kill them. Initially she probably gave them the same spiel she gave the Shakuras Protoss. And eventually Raynor and Fenix probably just got warier and warier of her, the more power she got. (I mean before Braxis they probably are on about even footing, hell, Kerrigan's probably at a disadvantage.)

Besides that, who says the Shakuras Protoss want to wage a war on the UED? They're a young, fractured nation at the moment, they don't really have the manpower to fight them and why would they REALLY want to?

Mengsk agrees to it because he wants his planet back. Raynor want to get rid of the big scary dictators (And Fenix is kinda going along for the ride, I suppose). What reason would the Shakuras Protoss have to fight them?

On the other hand, we have Kerrigan, who while more untrustworthy to be sure, has the resources, has the manpower, and furthermore... HAS A PLAN.

She wasn't so untrustworthy that they were terrified for their lives every moment they were allied with her. At least until she got her broods back, but by then I think they were probably too far in to pull up ship then.

[Confalone]

I gotta say that even though I started this furball, after reading this quote from her SCwiki page it made me a little sympathetic towards Kerrigan. In the end she's really just a victim I suppose, of the Confederacy at first, then the Zerg. Still, in the perfect universe, she's a terran again and the overmind is kicking ass in it's psychic horror way that it does.

Chris Metzen has described Kerrigan as (alongside Jim Raynor) the "loneliest person in the universe." In his mind, the possibility of her redemption and her rocky relationship with Raynor makes up the heart of the StarCraft universe.