Zerg were better off with the Overmind

[Quirel]

No, it creates a lot of stupid. Like a talking Torrasque, for example.

Agreed!

<off-topic> Oh Jesus Christ, can we please stop furiously masturbating to Portal yet? Is that allowed? Please?

I'm about as close to asexual as you can get, so your accusation is rather unfounded.

I am so sick of the love this game gets. Yes, it's a good game. Yes, it's worthy of praise, for both gameplay and writing. And voice acting. But calling GLaDOS a villain? And a good one, at that? Please.

She's Orcus, on his throne. She doesn't do anything.

She, like Kerrigan, is a child, only GLaDOS has some ridiculous obsession with putting some random woman through a maze.

Ah, you're a troper too! = D
And you're wrong. GLaDOS failed one of the major requirements for an Orcus: She wasn't powerful enough to go after you. She was doing what she could: Create insurmountable obstacles and screwing with your head.

And walking through Aperture Science, realizing that the scientists who were presumably watching your every move weren't just hidden but gone was creepy as Hell.

And hey, GLaDOS wasn't just putting you through the maze. She was putting a lot of test subjects through...
For Science!

You want a great videogame villain? Kreia. From Knights of the Old Republic 2. That's a great villain. When you can make the player question his morality, then you've got something compelling.

Haven't played it. On my list now, though.

Yeah, that line would have been a lot more powerful if not for the scores of idiot balls that it took to make that work.

Which was why the Overmind was such a lousy villain.
So, Aldaris and the rest of the Conclave wanted Tassadar, far-off Tassadar, dead when the Zerg are mowing through their forces like a school bus through a crowd of kindergartners?

And then, in the final level (Which I've recently replayed) just about nothing happens. Slaughtering the Overmind with two ragtag bunches of Protoss and Terrans when he's had God knows how many weeks to build up his defenses, and it's a cakewalk. Hell, the Second Overmind was tougher to kill, and he was a fledgling weakened by the Psi Disruptor.

Was coding waves upon waves of Zerg forces, designing lousy defensive positions for your troops to use, and creating insane defenses for the Zerg really too much work?

[newcomplex]

Calling Gladdos a poor villain for being Sauron then deridding the Kerrigan as a poor villain in favor of the Overmind is the most ridiculous assertion you could ever make.

GlaDDOS isn't a Orcus. She is present for every second of the game, constantly interacting with the protagonist. It is this interaction that won Portals acclaim. she's playing with the protagonist. The juxtaposition of a presumed safe testing environment with the malicious nature of GladdoS "tests", and her monotone voice guiding you through it, ultimately to a big pit of fire, that isn't "waiting" for you to come, that's actively driving you forward.

The overmind is the epitome of "orcus". He doesn't do ANYTHING prior to his invasion of Auir, in which all of a sudden he just, literally, teleports onto auir into his next natural progression.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MobileMenace

Then when you mention Kreia, she is the exact role the Overmind could never play, but is exceptionally well suited for Kerrigan. She is exactly the kind of human character that could cause personal tensions and the questioning of moralities.

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No, it creates a lot of stupid. Like a talking Torrasque, for example.

Why is this stupid?. I want a talking giantsharkelephant



;o

[Nicol Bolas]

He's going 'look at these horrible new Zerg things we're going to unleash on fellow human beings'.

Yes, and it's hard to describe someone as "moral" who will unleash "these horrible new Zerg things" on people.

He didn't have evidence!

Except, of course, the records of the battle. And the records of his communication logs with Duran. And the player. And pretty much every Terran who was participating in the battle at the time.

It may not be enough to get Duran shot on the spot, but it would certainly be enough to have Duran stripped of command and rank pending a formal investigation.

There is proof however that Stukov rebuilt the psi disruptor on braxis despite direct orders to destroy it.

Proof that doesn't exist until Stukov leaves and activates the thing. So it would still have been Stukov's secret had he stayed around.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't describe it as stupid so much as selfish and near-sighted.

No, it's stupid. It may also be selfish and near-sighted, but it's also undeniably stupid.

The overmind is the epitome of "orcus". He doesn't do ANYTHING prior to his invasion of Auir, in which all of a sudden he just, literally, teleports onto auir into his next natural progression.

The Overmind is supposed to be everywhere. It is a part of all of the Zerg. The actions of the Swarm are the action of the Overmind, just as the actions of your arm are your actions.

That's why the whole "talking with the Overmind" stuff was a big, fat load of fail.

[mr. peasant]

No, it's stupid. It may also be selfish and near-sighted, but it's also undeniably stupid.

Not really. Had he been able to capture Raszagal before Zeratul and Artanis returned, they would have demanded to know the meaning of it and he would have been able to simply tell them of his findings (assuming he's determined that they were simply fools who had been duped as opposed to being controlled by Kerrigan as well) in a peaceful if somewhat arrogant manner.

Besides, you have to look at it from his perspective. Shakuras, the Protoss' then last stronghold, was being invaded by Zerg. Raszagal was under the influence of Kerrigan, who was a Zerg. So, as far as he knew, all of this could be some elaborate Zerg trap. Waiting to let it all play out would have been even more foolish.

[Aldrius]

Yes, and it's hard to describe someone as "moral" who will unleash "these horrible new Zerg things" on people.

He has his orders. He's trying to take control of the sector and release it from the hold of aliens and errant dictators.

I don't think he's a saint, but he certainly has his ethics. Misguided and hypocritical he may be.

Proof that doesn't exist until Stukov leaves and activates the thing. So it would still have been Stukov's secret had he stayed around.

I must have missed the scene where they told us Stukov was an omniscient god. With a zerg spy in his ranks Stukov took his garrison to go and protect the one thing he believes is their best shot at defeating the Zerg.

I don't have proof of that, but I still don't think Stukov was being an idiot. I doubt he thought that Dugalle would brand him a traitor and go after him, he was just looking to make sure they were ready to deal with the Zerg and his plan backfired.

That's my take on the scene in any case.

No, it's stupid. It may also be selfish and near-sighted, but it's also undeniably stupid.

Maybe, but I don't think it's the 'bad writing' kind of stupid. More the 'one-dimensional asshole' kind of stupid. It's not his mental capacity that's preventing him from just going to Artanis and Zeratul and telling them their matriarch is under the effects of Kerrigan's control. It's his mustrustful nature and the fact that he was practically BEGGING for an excuse to wipe them out.

Plus there's the fact that they've already agreed to allow Kerrigan into their ranks, despite his warnings.

I wouldn't call it 'an idiot ball' in any case.

[Nicol Bolas]

I must have missed the scene where they told us Stukov was an omniscient god. With a zerg spy in his ranks Stukov took his garrison to go and protect the one thing he believes is their best shot at defeating the Zerg.

Let's assume this is 100% true, and he needed to make sure that the Psi Disruptor was safe ASAP.

How long would it have taken to compose an e-mail or a written document package outlining the evidence against Duran before leaving? Or maybe Stukov could have ordered one of his subordinates, like may be the player who knows all of the evidence, to tell DuGalle what's going on. Or, better yet, maybe the player or someone who knew could have taken the initiative and told DuGalle.

Simply disappearing is not a legitimate way of handling the discovery of a traitor.

Maybe, but I don't think it's the 'bad writing' kind of stupid. More the 'one-dimensional asshole' kind of stupid.

How is a one-dimensional character not bad writing? And why was he a one-dimensional character? Because there was no other way for the writers to have happen what they wanted to have happen.

That's pretty much the definition of the idiot ball: when your plot only works when someone acts like an idiot.

[Pandonetho]

To be honest... the player might not be exactly the best "informer."

Let's take a look at this from a realistic perspective. You are the player, you don't actually see or hear everything that's going on. The LAST thing you heard was that Duran seemed to have pulled out his forces and that Stukov had personal business to take care of.

You aren't Stukov's friend. In fact, you're just a subordinate. Duran is just as likely to be telling the truth to you as is Stukov with such sudden information flooding in. It would probably be best to stay out of the situation until the higher ups decide what to do.

[Aldrius]

How is a one-dimensional character not bad writing?

Plenty of good well-written characters are one dimensional. Caricature can be very effective in fiction when it's done properly.

And why was he a one-dimensional character? Because there was no other way for the writers to have happen what they wanted to have happen.

Because that's how he was established. He was a butthead in Vanilla, he was a butthead in Brood War. If anything they were being consistent.

That's pretty much the definition of the idiot ball: when your plot only works when someone acts like an idiot.

No, the definition of an idiot ball is when somebody does something idiotic... FOR NO REASON. Other than just sheer stupidity.

There are plenty of reasons and explanations for at least Aldaris' behaviour. And I can think of some reasonable ones for Stukov...

To be honest... the player might not be exactly the best "informer."

Let's also look at the fact that YOU go to kill Stukov. Despite having all the same evidence that he does.

[Nicol Bolas]

Let's take a look at this from a realistic perspective. You are the player, you don't actually see or hear everything that's going on. The LAST thing you heard was that Duran seemed to have pulled out his forces and that Stukov had personal business to take care of.

The last thing you "heard" was that your forces had to abandon the pursuit of Mengsk because Zerg forces had walked through Duran's position and you had to respond. You know Zerg forces got through; you didn't "hear" it from anyone because you have to stop chasing Mengsk to deal with it.

No, the definition of an idiot ball is when somebody does something idiotic... FOR NO REASON. Other than just sheer stupidity.

The Idiot Ball is a plot device. It is used when you need something to happen that would only happen if one or more persons act like idiots.

Plenty of good well-written characters are one dimensional. Caricature can be very effective in fiction when it's done properly.

Perhaps, but it has no place in anything you want to be taken seriously.

[mr. peasant]

The Idiot Ball is a plot device. It is used when you need something to happen that would only happen if one or more persons act like idiots.

That definition is correct. However, when you get right down to it, Starcraft itself is more or less an idiot plot. A lot of the things that happen happened simply in order to move the story in the way Blizzard needed it to despite there being no sense behind it.

For instance, what did the Overmind gain by being on Aiur before conquering it? Why expose itself, especially since it knew that the Protoss had access to methods of permanently killing it and its Cerebrates? Or what about the whole Protoss civil war? Even if the Conclave was a bunch of racist whackjobs, how did they convince the legions of Protoss warriors to go after Tassadar in the midst of an invasion of their home planet? And what about how Fenix and Raynor got caught with no contingency plan when Kerrigan betrayed them despite having previously discussed amongst themselves that Kerrigan could not be trusted and was bound to betray them once they served their purpose?