Zerg Roach Build Transition

[GRUNT]

I know you're good Todie - better than me - but I really don't see how you can consider Ultralisks a viable Tier 3 choice.

I'd love to see some replays, and I'm not saying this to 'call you out' - I do take your word for it for two reasons: 1) I know that you know what you're talking about 2) Blizzard hasn't done anything to the Ultralisk since the dawn of the beta, so maybe I'm missing something.

It just seems to me that Terrans don't even need to kite Ultras to kill them. Just focus-firing with Marauders is enough to get the job done really quickly.

As a Zerg player, discounting morphing them into Brood Lords, you wouldn't normally build Corruptors unless you maybe saw that your Terran opponent was getting Battlecruisers. However, Marauders aren't like that - they're something that the Terran player would have in abundance, regardless of whether or not he knows you're getting Ultralisks.

There's also the fact that Ultralisks are quite cruddy without both their upgrades, which take quite a lot of time and resources to acquire. The +2 armour upgrade is mainly to protect Ultras from Marines - the unit they're supposed to already be good at defeating. It doesn't make too much difference against the high-damage attacks of the Marauder .

To me, all these factors really makes Ultralisks ineffective :[. It's a unit that I really *want* to like though, but it's not easy to.



EDIT:

I've just been running some tests in the editor. Mind you, they aren't very accurate because it is just based on a-moving without micro, after all, but I do think that they give a rough indicator or how ineffective Ultralisks are.

I had two Zerg armies I used to compare:

3 Ultralisks + 12 Hydralisks (Total: 2100 Minerals 1200 gas)
OR
16 Roaches + 12 Hydralisks( Total: 2400 minerals 1000 gas)

I actually consider the Roach army cheaper because I value gas very highly.

So first, I sent both armies up against a pure Marine/Marauder force. The Ultralisk army fared worse.

Next, I removed some Marauders and Marines and added some Siege Tanks. My reasoning was that Marauders would do good damage to large, single targets like Ultralisks, but maybe with the Siege Tank's splash, using Roaches to tank will be less effective than Ultralisks. However, I was wrong - the Roach/Hydra combination did quite a bit more damage than the Ultralisk/Hydra combination.

Finally, I made a mixed Protoss army to go up against. It had Zealots, Stalkers a couple Sentries, but most importantly: 2 Immortals and 2 Colossi. I find that 2 Immortals is all it takes to be quite a roadblock against both Roaches and Ultralisks. Again, I wanted to see if the splash damage from Colossi made Ultralisks the better choice in this circumstance. However, the Roach/Hydra army performed much more effectively AGAIN.

Pound for pound, Roaches seem to be the better tank than Ultralisks. The only circumstance I can really see Ultralisks being useful in is in some dream situation where the Terran built only Marines without any Marauder support :[. And even then, Banelings would probably be more accessible and maybe even more effective than spending all that money and time on Ultra tech,

[Todie]

edit: thats kind of an heartsinking test, but i think upgrades and zergling support would favour the Ultras. in any case, Ultra/ling would do better if the enemy rellied much on Ravens.

also, as i point out below, it neednt be about cost efectiveness; enough HP per unit to acutaly move forward is valued in some situations, like vs critical mass of ST's at a choke where Roaches would evaporate.


i wasnt around then, but Im fairly certain that Ultras had a puny if any AoE at start of beta, but at some early poin,it was buffed - (if so, without being noted) .. regardless, utlras deal FULL splash in an area euqal or greater of a psi-storm. and they attack fast.

i dont have clear recollection of using them in any rational ZvT game specifically - i can get a ZvZ replay at best. i would dig in my archives a bit more but i cant even view my own reps atm so...

.... im not saying its easy to get to the point where utlras are a rational choice, im just saying it is there - even if there are marauders.

there is no question in my mind about Ultras being good vs marauders with concerns to mineral cost if they arnt kiting; youll be hitting 5-10 infantery units per hit; thats surely the sickest DPS in the game, maybe even for cost! attack upgrades will also ramp up that total AoE sum even furhter - even if enemy has armor up's too - since its +3x1 per upgrade (iirc?) and armor only takes away 1 from that per upp.

and yes, marauders deal good damage to them back, especially with focus fire, but that means they arnt hitting the hydra/roach/ling (depending) that should accompany the ultra(s) which means those will live longer, and not be slowed.

Ultras might also soak Tank fire for more friendly-fire-splash hurt on infantery and further survivability of ling/hydra/roach

... in theory we can even disregard Ultra splash and still argue that they'd be situationally useful if nost cost effective damage-wise: sometimes you want to spend your gas on a big hunk of meat that can buy time for your more fragile units to move closer and deal damage! - quite similar to how Ultras are used in ZvP in sc/bw : sometimes cost effectiveness is secondary to "refusal to ever fucking die" ... that said, as pointed out, Ultras AoE dmg in sc2 make em not just situationally useful, but cost effective! (situationaly?)

Immortals are on paper an even stronger counter to ultras. but they only have 5 range (hello infestor NP?), are not great vs lategame ling/hydra (not to mention air). they also compete for production with the almighty colossus that would helps vs those units and is less flexible in mobility / placemnt than most P & Z.

-Using ultras vs P would probably go in waves; if you know your enemy is low on immortals, get some ultras and sue them well! when he counters, focus on making other units 'till he's yet again low on immortals and / or when he's making lots of zealot/stalker/HT/colossus ...

yes, im sure Broodlords would have a role to play in many of those situations, but Ultras might have one too!

im confident that high end creative ZvT's and ZvP's that go into late late-games will feature some tasty ultralisk use, sooner or later; its possible they're overshadowed by BL's right now due to imbalance or other reasons, but i think the mechanics are in place to make ultras effective, and the use of them rational.. i guess it just takes a lot to go for ultralisk cavern with those ugprades rahter than upgrading the spire & spending gas on Air..

[Todie]

started trying some testing of my own, i tried it with 2-2 upps on everything, 1:1 with marine/marauder vs Ultra/ling compared to raw roach equal costs, but higher gas cost than for the terran.

Roaches did worse even wen noone had any upgrades; its probably roaches without speed talking, but anyway, with or without 'grades, Ultras did better: they survived.

deeper analysis later. maybe.

[Islandsnake]

I think utlras are just very hard to get too compared to brood lords since you need the upgrades + the ultra upgrades to really make them shine.

Eventually I think they'll creep there way into the meta game though

[arthas]

I think utlras are just very hard to get too compared to brood lords since you need the upgrades + the ultra upgrades to really make them shine.

Eventually I think they'll creep there way into the meta game though

That's of course not true....Spire costs 200/200 ,upgrading it cost aditional what? 100/150? Ultra Cavern is 150/200 and less time to build(200 total for Spire/Greater 65 for Cavern..),BL cost 50 more gas than ultras...As for upgrades with 600 hp(highest in the games !) Speed is the first thing you should use,The only HARD counter to ultras is Thors-especially with 250mm stun attacks....SO they are still viable options,Casting fungal growth to stop kiting is the best thing you should do if you have ultras(Infestation pit is required for hive anyway)......

[Nicol Bolas]

That's of course not true....Spire costs 200/200 ,upgrading it cost aditional what? 100/150? Ultra Cavern is 150/200 and less time to build(200 total for Spire/Greater 65 for Cavern..),BL cost 50 more gas than ultras...As for upgrades with 600 hp(highest in the games !) Speed is the first thing you should use,The only HARD counter to ultras is Thors-especially with 250mm stun attacks....SO they are still viable options,Casting fungal growth to stop kiting is the best thing you should do if you have ultras(Infestation pit is required for hive anyway)......

OK, first, seriously man, space after punctuation. It's part of English grammar. Use it!

Second, the Spire has a use outside of getting Brood Lords. You can get a Spire for Mutalisks or Corruptors, then transition into Brood Lords after the Spire has paid for itself.

The Ultralisk Upgrades are still required to make them worthwhile. Ultralisks are easily slaughtered by mass Hydralisks, mass Marauders, Immortals, and anything flying that can shoot at them.

[Hammy]

I'm going to side with Grunt on this one, but something that I should point out is that I do NOT think that ultralisk is weak, but simply that the BroodLord is always a better option to me.
Maybe that means the BL is too strong, but at the same time its force is necessary because of how weak a late game T2 zerg army is (against a standard mix of protoss units for example, but in late-game proportions).

I DO think the Broodlord is too strong as a standalone unit, but unfortunately the ultralisk, although very strong as well, doesn't bring anything new to a lategame zerg army.

The fact that Z need to tech to T3 (aka Broodlords) to survive doesn't have to be a bad thing though... after all that's exactly how ZvT worked in BW, but it's just something I had to incorporate to my lategame mindset (I should point out this is only on certain maps, like Kulas Ravine, where the chokes are just silly).
That being said, I would prefer a slightly stronger synergy between lategame Zerg units. Zerg are supposed to give a "massing" feel, but right now large numbers just hinder you because of pathing, and that's exactly what makes the Ultralisk fail so hard in many situations.

OK, first, seriously man, space after punctuation. It's part of English grammar. Use it!

Mad props for not having ignored him yet

[arthas]

OK, first, seriously man, space after punctuation. It's part of English grammar. Use it!

Second, the Spire has a use outside of getting Brood Lords. You can get a Spire for Mutalisks or Corruptors, then transition into Brood Lords after the Spire has paid for itself.

The Ultralisk Upgrades are still required to make them worthwhile. Ultralisks are easily slaughtered by mass Hydralisks, mass Marauders, Immortals, and anything flying that can shoot at them.

How the hell should i know what's part of English grammar ? I haven't grown up around English speaking people, and honestly haven't really spend time learning english so enough with the lessons ! And stop making all those annoying remarks on all the posts people make, it's like you are a total grouch...(seriously probably 95% of your posts are either stupid remarks or trying to show your 'great wisdom'...)

Secondly I was comparing statistics, And i dunno about marauders and immortals, but ultras are 3 times more resiliant to them than brood lords are to vikings and void rays...So that whole 'flying slaughtering' thing is obsolete....Of course a ground unit with no air attack is countered by AIR, but Ultralisks will always last longer vs their counters than the brood lords will againts there own...

As for Hammy-dude quit it with the whole 'trolling' stuff it's getting really( i mean REALLY) corny...

[GRUNT]

started trying some testing of my own, i tried it with 2-2 upps on everything, 1:1 with marine/marauder vs Ultra/ling compared to raw roach equal costs, but higher gas cost than for the terran.

Roaches did worse even wen noone had any upgrades; its probably roaches without speed talking, but anyway, with or without 'grades, Ultras did better: they survived.

deeper analysis later. maybe.

No offence Todie, but I don't think pure Roach isn't really fair . To me, Ultras and Roaches both fill a similar tank role and require at least one other unit to synergise with them. Besides early-game ZvZ or PvZ, I'd never send Roaches in by themselves.

Ultraling has a bizarre synergy in SC2 in that unlike SC1, BOTH units do pretty good damage. In fact, the Ultralisk's DPS for cost might even be better than the Zergling's thanks to splash, its special anti-building attack, and the fact that Zerglings have less DPS in SC2! So we have this perverse situation where maybe the lings are taking Marauder hits for the Ultras, allowing the Ultras to get their DPS in.

Chokes are definitely the death of Hydra/Roach though, as you pointed out. And the maps in SC2 are practically all chokefests. I'd need to do more testing to see how effective Roaches are at tanking when there's a critical mass of Siege Tanks/Colossi.

[Sarov]

OK, first, seriously man, space after punctuation. It's part of English grammar. Use it!

I'm going to have to agree with Arthas on this one. To assume that everyone should or does know proper English is rude in my eyes. This may be an English-speaking site but not everyone is going to be able to speak/write/type English as well as those who have English as their first language.

You don't need to be so rude about it.

And before you say something along the lines of, "This is an English-speaking forum so he'd better know proper grammar! Or he should at least try!" How do you know he isn't trying? I've heard many times that the English language is the hardest to learn. What makes you think that he isn't having a hard time as well? And I've seen many people on this forum with worse grammar and punctuation than him or have the same level. I can give several examples but I'm not going to do that. If you're going to pick on people for something like that, don't pick on just one person.

And ignoring someone because they don't type as well as others is rude as well.

Now, I'm not saying you are thinking that way or that you would say those things, I'm just saying in case you do - I can't read people's minds.

I'm getting really, really sick of these types of things. People picking on someone else because they believe that person to be an idiot, or picking on them because they are not like most people for whatever reason. I don't care if people are assholes because this is the internet and they are anonymous because that doesn't give them the right to do it or excuse their behavior. And if anyone wants to use that as an excuse, I could easily say that because I am a moderator and am anonymous I should be even worse. But I'm not and I won't.

And besides, I don't just view my position as 'cleaning up threads and the forums' but as making sure people feel welcome. As someone who has long been intimidated by the 'smarter' people of the forum(s), I know damn sure I don't want other people feeling the same way I do - yes, that's right, I still do feel that way. I'd rather risk having people dislike me for wanting to do more than just worry about threads than to see people leaving or not joining because of one or two unfriendly posters/posts. That's why I have such a problem with things like this.

And, while I may not have been treated the same or a similar way before I was a moderator or even now when it comes to the use of the English language, I know what it's like all too to be bullied or intimidated since I have experienced it too much of that in my daily life for various reasons. And while this may have been a little too much, I felt the need to express this.

And as for you, Arthas, you didn't have to tell Hammy to 'go back to the hole' that he crawled out of.