Thor - 250mm Strike Cannons against Immortals

[newcomplex]

Context helps. Ever heard of "Hardened Shields"? They work like this: anything over 10 damage is reduced to 10 damage.

A nuke deals over 10 damage. Guess what ought to happen next.

Yeah, I understand, gameplay wise, if it were to operate consistently, the Nuke should not kill the immortal. I don't care enough to argue/agree with that opinion.

You're not argueing consistency, you're argueing visual intuitiveness, in which case nukes not killing immortals is just not intuitive. A immortal does not look like it can survive a nuke, and hardened sheilds does not look like it can take 590 damage. If hardened sheild had say, extremely strong shaders and activated with the radius of colosus sheilds or sentry wards, sure, you can make an argument. But as it stands, its a small flash that weakens artillery like marauder rockets and tank shots and whatnot. It does not appear to possess the power to stop thermonuclear detonations. Its also thematically wrong, because now you have a t2 unit that is made in medium amounts regularily surviving direct nuclear impacts. This diminishes the power of the nuke, which is suppose to be zomg wtf bbq.

And it doesn't make sense, obviously there are limits to how much Hardened sheilds reduces.

[Nicol Bolas]

Actually its retarded that a massive damage can be blocked, while tiny little bullets pass the shield like butter.

To the degree that any kind of force shield makes sense, that can make sense. High damage shots tend to be larger. Larger shots typically present a larger front surface area. And force fields could work based on the surface area of the projectile.

Nets work the same way. The little fish that aren't worth picking up get through, while the big fish get caught.

All I know from the Cannon animation is that his attack is faster. How much?

Faster enough. It's 4 cannons firing in rapid fire.

I'm just saying that the imagery suggests relatively fast bursts of a super high powered weapon, when in actuality we're getting super super fast bursts of an incredibly weak weapon.

Not by StarCraft standards. 20 damage is a reasonably strong attack.

And it doesn't make sense, obviously there are limits to how much Hardened sheilds reduced.

Actually, it's a very Protoss thing to have shields that could survive a Nuke.

[TheRabidDeer]

Build an Immortal and HT. Storm the Immortal and watch its shields. It will go down 80 points in 8 bursts of 10.

That is interesting, I never realized it was 10 dmg bursts.

[newcomplex]

^


And visually, the animation of hardened sheilds looks like a "net" (connected hexagons. )

[warrior6]

you can argue that this is "lame" or stupid but you cant tell me with a straight face that its overpowered. there is always 2-3 more immortals for every thor. and immortals are pretty overpowered atm

[pure.Wasted]

You're not argueing consistency, you're argueing visual intuitiveness, in which case nukes not killing immortals is just not inintuitive.

My law of intuitiveness (actually, Blizzard's) does not exist in some vacuum where context is completely irrelevant. Just because visuals matter doesn't mean nothing else does.

Hardened Shields lays out very clear rules which Nuke and Yamato break. 250 mm Strike Cannons do not break its rules, HOWEVER, the ability's animation (and name -- seriously, 250 mm shells? Those bullets are 1/4 of a meter in size) suggests that the ability does in fact break the rules.

The only thing I have said here is that the animation is not intuitive and ought to be changed to represent a barrage of weak attacks, as opposed to the current semi-barrage of super powerful attacks.

The Immortal talk was merely a detour.

Its thematically wrong, because now you have a t2 unit that is made in medium amounts regularily surviving direct nuclear impacts. Which now diminuiates from the power of the nuke, which is suppose to be zomg wtf bbq.

And the point of the Immortal is diminishing the power of "zomg wtf bbq" type attacks. That is, in effect, what makes the Immortal so zomg wtf bbq itself. What's the excuse here? The Nuke is SO awesome the game rules need not apply?

And it doesn't make sense, obviously there are limits to how much Hardened sheilds reduced.

Obviously there are limits? Why? Common sense does not suggest that an attack that deals 90 damage (Thor) can be reduced while an attack that deals 4 damage (Marine) remains absolutely untouched. Obviously there is technology we do not understand at work, so we can't then go and say at some arbitrary point it has to start obeying conventional laws that we're used to seeing.

Furthermore, if that IS the case, why doesn't Blizz just make another flat rule? "The Shield reduces everything that is more than 10 damage and less than 100 damage to 10." Bam, problem solved.

[newcomplex]

My law of intuitiveness (actually, Blizzard's) does not exist in some vacuum where context is completely irrelevant. Just because visuals matter doesn't mean nothing else does.

Hardened Shields lays out very clear rules which Nuke and Yamato break. 250 mm Strike Cannons do not break its rules, HOWEVER, the ability's animation (and name -- seriously, 250 mm shells? Those bullets are 1/4 of a meter in size) suggests that the ability does in fact break the rules.

A 250 mm shell is consistent with that fired from a tank. 20 damage is consistent with the damage fired from a tank. The animation is consistent with a)The recoil expected from a tank blast b)The damage/explosion is consistent with that expected from a tank blast (Being shot at a rate of 3 (5 on fastest) per second). The fast speed is consistent with the fact this this unit is not, in fact, a tank, but a giant walking mech with six giant canons on its back.

I'm glad you weren't hired as blizzards visual director. You're suggesting those six gigantic canons with barrels the size of your face shoot bullets?

The only thing I have said here is that the animation is not intuitive and ought to be changed to represent a barrage of weak attacks, as opposed to the current semi-barrage of super powerful attacks.

It isn't a barrage of weak attacks because it isn't a barrage of weak attack lols....their shooting TANK SHELLS. You know, like the ones fired from TANKS. At a speed of 3 per second, consistent with what the animation implies.

And the point of the Immortal is diminishing the power of "zomg wtf bbq" type attacks. That is, in effect, what makes the Immortal so zomg wtf bbq itself. What's the excuse here? The Nuke is SO awesome the game rules need not apply?

Their is a rule here. That abilities do not do physical damage, but special damage. This is a fairly conventional rule. The nuke is special because its an ability, not an normal attack. And the point of the immortal was not to tank a freakin thermonuclear weapon, it was to tank mid damage attacks which traditionally destroyed the dragoon such as missles and large shell based munitions.

Obviously there are limits? Why? Common sense does not suggest that an attack that deals 90 damage (Thor) can be reduced while an attack that deals 4 damage (Marine) remains absolutely untouched. Obviously there is technology we do not understand at work, so we can't then go and say at some arbitrary point it has to start obeying conventional laws that we're used to seeing.

....like the laws of themodynamics...?

Either that or the immortals energy sheild is powered by something which contains the power of 10 nuclear explosions and is able to maintain it indefintely. k.

Furthermore, if that IS the case, why doesn't Blizz just make another flat rule? "The Shield reduces everything that is more than 10 damage and less than 100 damage to 10." Bam, problem solved.

What in the game does more then 100 damage other then abilities which are already covered by the fact that abilities do "special" non-conventional damage which makes sense because most abilities are rather non-conventional in some way.

Plus, whether or not that mechanic exists has nothing to do at all with visual intuitiveness.

[pure.Wasted]

Faster enough. It's 4 cannons firing in rapid fire.

The Thor appears to get in 4 attacks in the time it's actually done 10. This seems to be close enough to count for you (given that the regular attack would have been 1 hit in that time, not 4 OR 10), but it just isn't close enough for me. There's not much else I can say here.

If they doubled the animation's speed that might do the trick for me. But it might be visually confusing with so much movement. Hard to say.

[newcomplex]

The Thor appears to get in 4 attacks in the time it's actually done 10. This seems to be close enough to count for you (given that the regular attack would have been 1 hit in that time, not 4 OR 10), but it just isn't close enough for me. There's not much else I can say here.

If they doubled the animation's speed that might do the trick for me. But it might be visually confusing with so much movement. Hard to say.

And the marine does like 500 attacks in the time the game does 1. zomg marines should do .01 damage at a 500 damage per second!!111!!

no.

Also, perhaps those gigantic canons fire more then one shell in a sort of pseudo burst fire to minimize overheating? Then cool for like .2 seconds and does it again? You don't know how the thor operates.

If you do, I want your Thor pilots manual now kthx ;_;.

[Gt2slurp]

A 250 mm shell is consistent with that fired from a tank. 20 damage is consistent with the damage fired from a tank. The animation is consistent with a)The recoil expected from a tank blast b)The damage/explosion is consistent with that expected from a tank blast (Being shot at a rate of 3 (5 on fastest) per second). The fast speed is consistent with the fact this this unit is not, in fact, a tank, but a giant walking mech with six giant canons on its back.

QED

Their is a rule here. That abilities do not do physical damage, but special damage. This is a fairly conventional rule. The nuke is special because its an ability, not an normal attack. And the point of the immortal was not to tank a freakin thermonuclear weapon, it was to tank mid damage attacks which traditionally destroyed the dragoon such as missles and large shell based munitions.

This is an usefull rule, but it is really lame lorewise. There is no special attack, only kind of attacks. Certain kind of attack trigger the shield certain not, there is no special freebee. Including a special attack type is like giving up to make the game agree with the lore, and it is pretty lame from blizz.

A word concerning hardened shield and why it doesnt block everything considering it block tank bullet. First, the marine bullet doesn't flow trough the shield freely, the shield absorb it. Second, the hardened shield is a spherical net who take the energy of the attack to harden itself, like corn-starch and water (lol). So the harder you hit, the harder the shield is, hence the constant damage.