Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?

[pure.Wasted]

Overlords dont just scout the base, they scout the entire map. If the enemy is getting an expansion SOMEWHERE on the map, you should know about it. If they are moving their army, you should know about it. And yes, you can scout into a base with an overlord and get just as much info as a scan depending on his base setup. Up to mid game most bases have holes somewhere on the sides that you can sneak in on to sacrifice an OL. I am not saying that losing an overlord is cheap, but it is an EXTREMELY good scout.

Even if it takes you two OLs sent in at the same time to get one far enough into the base to see what's going on, that's STILL a better deal than losing 270 minerals (IF you don't have a gold expo) on Scan.

[BnetGamer77]

I guess it covers scouting and a cost then...funny how I'm not instantly revealed. Perhaps I'm being skeptical or paranoid of the ways it can go wrong or not be worth-while.

Which is in turn hypocritical, because I never mentioned like some have covered that scouting while being an option can't always be a sure shot to profit...it can fold up on itself too if the information gathered and seen didn't aid you in anyway.

[Hammy]

The problem with having too many scouting options is that it'll just be counter>counter>counter all the time. I think a fundamental part of an RTS is solid play, which means that you have to be able to fight anything he throws at you.

It's the little things, like why do you place a supply/pylon/overlord near your backdoor, or in that little smoke screen in the back of your base? Why does a terran often need at least a turret before he even scouts the spire? Don't Zerg have to get a fast lair if they can't see whether their Protoss opponent went robo or stargate? It's a precaution (that I hate, but it has it's merit).
Fighting an invisible enemy gives the game lots of depth imo. If one could always scout everything (even if at a cost), players would become build order machines even more.

Actually, I would like it if they brought back some of the invisible unit awesomeness. They've pushed invisibility back a bit too much imo.

And btw, terran has the reaper to scout during that key transition moment.

[pure.Wasted]

The problem with having too many scouting options is that it'll just be counter>counter>counter all the time. I think a fundamental part of an RTS is solid play, which means that you have to be able to fight anything he throws at you.

That's simply impossible. A Protoss who goes pure Zealots while I'm getting to Reaper harass him is going to lose the game, no matter solidly he plays.

[flak4321]

@Bnetgamer and Hammy:

Funny thing: I understand all the scouting purposes and needs and how to do it, but I play almost exactly as Hammy stated: adapt to whatever gets thrown at me. I do, however, incorporate 2 nuances that may help you, Bnet.

First, I scout near expansions for my own use first and expand outward. The enemy base is usually last on my scouting list, as I prefer to limit his/her expansion ability and secure map control. This includes roving scouts such as upgraded overlords, observers and/or cloaked wraiths in SC1. In SC2, lords and observers are still there, but Banshees would take the place of my wriaths. Note: The Science Facility/Raven does get used in my strats but usually stays near my army or watches chokes nearby. They are too vulnerable to use as long-range scouts.

The second note is my build strat, in 2 parts: I rarely hard-counter anything, unless I have no other choice. I prefer to go hard and heavy once I do go and find a way to force my opponent to adapt. When I do get to play SC2, I see many options that favor this "Blitzkrieg"-esque style such as stalkers (blink), reapers, Thor rushes, Colossi, warp-in, nydus worm, and others. Basically, there are a number of SC2 "Why scout when I can surprise" options, that makes it entierly possible to force an adaptataion regardless of what the early scout revealed.

The second build note is that I try to build every building and force the opponent to have to worry about countering everything. I typically keep a very varied army and only go with one or two unit types for mop-up duty as needed, unless I see nothing to counter unit type X when I do break the main's outer defenses. I call this the super agressive scout mechanic, where my army is my scout. This requires heavy macro and is not for all. But, each to their own, after all.

[Asfastasican]

I would be fine with them moving the overlord speed upgrade to Tier 1 since they bumped burrow up to Tier 2. I honestly don't think it would be imbalanced if it requires gas. It would take up resources very early on in order to have that scouting edge by having a faster overlord parked by the enemy base.

[Hammy]

That's simply impossible. A Protoss who goes pure Zealots while I'm getting to Reaper harass him is going to lose the game, no matter solidly he plays.

What are you talking about? That's my point, the protoss player needs to have a basic army composition that will allow him to repel the reaper attack, but also a marine rush or MM attack. That means he must NOT have a pure zealot army, or a pure stalker army, or a pure sentry army. Solid play isn't the same thing as brainless unit production....
Then he'll have to adapt his build based on the scouting info he gets, but that scouting info shouldn't be unlimited. It's all about balancing these key elements.

[pure.Wasted]

What are you talking about? That's my point, the protoss player needs to have a basic army composition that will allow him to repel the reaper attack, but also a marine rush or MM attack. That means he must NOT have a pure zealot army, or a pure stalker army, or a pure sentry army. Solid play isn't the same thing as brainless unit production....
Then he'll have to adapt his build based on the scouting info he gets, but that scouting info shouldn't be unlimited. It's all about balancing these key elements.

You said, and I quote:

The problem with having too many scouting options is that it'll just be counter>counter>counter all the time. I think a fundamental part of an RTS is solid play, which means that you have to be able to fight anything he throws at you.

Him scouting that I have Reapers and "[adapting] his build based on the scouting info he gets" is precisely what leads to counter>counter>counter. Obviously I'm exaggerating when I say "c>c>c," but I assume you are too, because I've yet to see any matches that literally function as nothing but consecutive counter battles... especially because even if both armies have units that counter each other perfectly, macro (unit amount) and micro (unit use) will be the most important thing in the battle.

I don't think we disagree, really. But if so, I find your original wording a little curious.