If you think there is a problem with the Queen...

[ArcherofAiur]

post in this thread
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...=5000&pageNo=2


We changed the old vespene macro mechanic. We changed the Protoss macro mechanic. We can do it again. If you think there is a problem with the current state of Zerg macro post in the thread above. Let Blizzard know what your thoughts are. And please articulate them as well as you can while still being constructive and polite.


Here is Blizzard posted on the issue of the macro mechanics

Chrono Boost as well as the MULE are as much a tactical decision as any other in StarCraft II. In my experience, deciding when and where to use Chrono Boost is very critical to your strategy, same for deploying a MULE vs. saving extra energy and using the Orbital Scanner.
-Benzenn

Great points, but here are some details to consider.

Utilizing Chrono Boost, MULE, the Queen's abilities, and many other "energy-based" resources that aid players is a decision to be made by the player in situations where they deem them to be pivotal and beneficial in their strategy. We want players to develop their own strategies and use these tools to their highest potential.

If Chrono Boost, MULE or Spawn Larvae were auto-cast, there wouldn't be much strategy involved. These are not intended to make the game difficult, but rather, they provide each race with unique outlets for economy, unit production and many other decision-based tactics.

Allowing abilities to auto-cast is a difficult decision that comes on a case-by-case basis. We do not want to do everything for the player but at the same time there are some abilities that feel like they make the most sense for this.
-Benzenn

Here was my responce.

Benzenn,
This is an incredibly important issue to myself and many others. I hope you read all of my post but if not this is the crux of the issue

The issue is not making the macro mechanics auto cast (that would defeat the purpose).
The issue is making the macro mechanics warrant player action (through decision making).





The Real Issue
You have stated that Blizzard's intent is for the macro mechanics to be "unique outlets for economy, unit production and many other decision-based tactics." I know I am not the only person on these forums that feel that the current workings of macro (specifically the queen) do not stand up to Blizzard's stated intent. Spawn Larva does not contain decision making to warrant player action.

I feel part of the problem is in defining the issue itself. It seems that when a player asks
Q: Why cant the macro mechanics be autocast
The answer they recieve is
A:Cause that would defeat the point.

But that is not the real question that the player is asking. What the player really means to ask is
Q: Why do the macro mechanics not contain decision making such that player action is meaningful

It may even be that the player asking this question hasnt thought about it at this level yet. Player action is intrincally tied to player decision. Mechanical skill is a must for SC2. No one is a bigger proponent of that than me. But mechanical skill must be tied with decision making to warrant a meaningful action.



On Meaningful Action
I respect and love Blizzard. However at the same time I feel that Blizzard is not truly aware of the gaming conventions that dictate when automation vs player action is warranted. I am no game designer. I trust Blizzard to design a game 1000X better than I could. However on the idea that "player action must be tied to decision making" I am almost absolutly convinced that I am in the right.

To help the discussion of this topic I spent several weeks putting together a detailed article on the themes of Meaningful Clicking, Energy Tension and Redundant Targeting. I would hope that Blizzard would at least skim through it. When it was featured on StarcraftLegacy.com the responce was almost overwhelmingly in agreement with the ideas and concerns presented.
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contri...acro-mechanics

In closing Blizzard, this is a issue that I have watched, studied, argued, and most importantly thought about for the past several years. Ive started and participated in innumberable threads on this subject both here, on StarcraftLegacy and on TeamLiquid. Through it all I have maintained an utmost respect for Blizzards goals while at the same time questioning the implementation. A clear response addressing the underlying issues of Decision Making in casting Spawn Larva (not just what you make with the eventual larva) would mean allot to me and the many other community members who share my concerns.

Sincerly,
ArcherofAiur

[ArcherofAiur]

It appears I am the only one who has a problem with Zerg macro. Oh well. Since no one cares about this issue I guess ill just do another one of Archer's crazy theorycrafts...



Queen
-Loses ability to attack air
-Cost increased to 150 Minerals 50 Gas

Spawn Larva
-Decreased from 4 larva to 3 larva per casting
-Hatcheries can have multiple larva growing on them at once

Creep Tumor
-Same

Vespene Wasp
-Timed life
-Can harvest X vespene gas per trip
-Does not interfere with Drone gas harvesting
-Melee anti-air attack
-Scourge speed

[Nicol Bolas]

-Decreased from 4 larva to 3 larva per casting
-Hatcheries can have multiple larva growing on them at once

Are you serious? Do you have any idea what that would do? You're effectively making Hatcheries cost 150 minerals. You can just keep getting more and more Queens. There'd be no need to move them to vulnerable expansions or get in-base Hatcheries to improve larva production for larva-heavy units.

[Asfastasican]

Stuff

I don't see why Queens need their cost increased. Chronoboost comes free after all!

I do love the Vespene Wasp idea. You have my blessing.

I also agree with Nicol about the larva changes. Do you even play Zerg? lol

[Hav0x]

Vespene is the bottleneck to macro. Giving one race the ability to get gas faster than any other race is completely imbalanced. Not to mention the potential to abuse it with multiple queens.

[pure.Wasted]

What in God's name happened in the Macro thread while I was away? Dear lord. The world is turned upside down.

I posted support.

[DemolitionSquid]

Words cannot describe the pain I feel this moment.

[Shadow Archon]

Vespene Wasp sounds awesome, but it would be hard to balance. The Zerg seem to be the best race to receive a gas mechanic though.

[ArcherofAiur]

Hmmm My first impression is that this might decrease the need to get additional hatcheries. CouldI suggest that you keep a cap but have it be more than the one SL cast limit currently in place. For instance you could have a hatchery able to bear 2 castings of SL.

I also noticed that you increase the cost of the Queen. This is presumably to make Queen energy have increased energy tension. This also brings Zerg back down in powerlevel with the other two races. However if this is not enough cost the queen's cost could be increased. Say to something like 200 minerals 100 gas. Idk i would have to play with the numbers but i think there is potential there.

Obvivously im just throwing out numbers here. Another thing to consider is that zerg players will still be building hatcheries at expansions for resource purposes. That actually seems to be the norm for high level zerg play so maybe my point about decreasing the use of multiple inbase zerg hatcheries is irrelevant anyway.

Anyway good suggestions. Keep up the theorycrafting Archer!

Edited for manners and Nicol actually being constructive for once.

Thanks Nicol! Those are really great points you just made!

I agree that the queens cost could be increased and that the majority of Zerg play we are seeing is one hatchery per base anyway (with some exceptions of course).

[Perfecttear]

They should just increase spawns larva cost from 25 to 50 energy, and in return make the larva spawn in 10 seconds instead of the current 40seconds. Would be much more easy to use this ability with the time decrease and you wouldn't have to spam it as often.