ZvZ Roach Issue

[moosh]

So I just won a game against someone with roaches and I teched burrow and movement while burrowed. The thing is he teched to muta... but the mutas just didnt do enough damage to the roaches and so I was able to take out most of his tech buildings while also getting evo for spore colonies and hydras.

So I won, and yet, it didn't feel right. In Z vs Z what counters the roach? It seems like nothing but the brood lord does but that's such high tier.

[moosh]

In fact, all you need is pool, roach, and evo chamber to win against zerg... maybe hydra den.

Think about it. You tech burrow, movement while burrow, and you're a serious threat to mineral lines. Evo chamber to protect your hatchery from muta harass or to retreat to when your roaches are being attacked by mutas. If they're going heavy muta you invest in a handful of hydras and that'll keep the mutalisks busy long enough to steam roll their base with the roaches. If they go roaches as well you just tech 1 armor at evo chamber and your good. If your macro is about equal than... well... roaches dominate the game.

I'm gonna try this build on every z opponent... i think it has a lot of potential.

[Aldrius]

Yes, nothing short of mass hydras or tier 3 beats roaches.

Yes, ZvZ is pretty much nothing but roach vs. roach.

There's some talk that +1 speedlings might be an effective counter or at least alternative to mass roaches, though. More mobility, more harassment potential. There's some possibilities there.

We'll have to see what happens.

[Todie]

i have good success with lings vs roaches generally. so long as i get past the first waves of roaches OK; you need some crawlers for that. you'll also want to use lings mobility advantage for harassment whenever possible.

[Genopath]

When a Z players goes mutas against me he always losses. The simple cost of building the spire requires the gas for 8 roaches.

ZvZ is pretty much Roach, Hydra and one overseer. I've seen some ling builds that sometimes work though.

Hydras are good because they can shoot from very far away. The ideal is to have 2 lines of roaches in the frontline and as much hydras as can have in the back.

Also I believe a -1 armor nerf would make the zergling a lot more viable in ZvZ

[Gt2slurp]

What about making them cost 2 supply instead? They would be more difficult to mass and would give to opponent a counter by attacking overlords

[DLM16A2]

I love burrowed movement. It has acutally won most of my games. Then again, I am in copper league #2. Hopefully I can change divisions to play some better people.

Anyway, I guess this is from playing copper league players, but I rarely see cannons, turrets, or spore crawlers early in game so I can usually just burrow into my enemy's base, wait until he leaves to attack me then pop up and kill him. Ive done this to terran too when they dont put turrets at their walled choke. I will park my roaches by his supply depots and go in when he lowers. Hopefully higher division players dont make this mistake, but I have won ALOT of games like this.

[flak4321]

What about making them cost 2 supply instead? They would be more difficult to mass and would give to opponent a counter by attacking overlords

This has been mentioned in other roach threads and feels to me a viable nerf. The reaction in those threads has been basically "No, it goes against the lore of massed units for Zerg." I posit that the Ultra has typically been 6 and later 4 in SC1 (someone please provide the statistic for SC2. Thanks!) and that the good old lurker was a 2 supply unit. It would be entirely understandable to make the roach a 2 sup unit as it is supposed to be filling the largest part of the lurker void, assuming I have understood the running converstions about the roach properly.

If not we could propose an increase in cost to 100 m and 75 g.

[Islandsnake]

Theres nothing wrong with roaches being dominate in ZvZ, its already a pretty fun matchup I really don't want to see ling vs ling etc. (which is so redic with how fast speedlings are now)

With timings on upgrades and how many hydras to get etc.

If its not roaches its going to be lings, hydra are already used - what do you people want? Mass Air battles every game?

Give it awhile, the matchup is growing !

[arthas]

This has been mentioned in other roach threads and feels to me a viable nerf. The reaction in those threads has been basically "No, it goes against the lore of massed units for Zerg." I posit that the Ultra has typically been 6 and later 4 in SC1 (someone please provide the statistic for SC2. Thanks!) and that the good old lurker was a 2 supply unit. It would be entirely understandable to make the roach a 2 sup unit as it is supposed to be filling the largest part of the lurker void, assuming I have understood the running converstions about the roach properly.

If not we could propose an increase in cost to 100 m and 75 g.

ultras cost 300/200/6/70sec , roaches are 75/25/1/27,while hydras are 100/50/2/33.....In Sc1 ultras were 200/200/4/60 .... Nope the increase to 100/75 will be TOO gas heavy,roaches are probably good as they are now,maybe the cost should be 100/25 and the organic carapace should give regen to unburrowed roaches...