Roaches are whats wrong with this game

[Kimera757]

While I would love to see hydralisks back at tier 1.5, how would the zerg deal with zealots?

Banelings just don't do enough damage, given their cost and, of course, tier 1 hydralisks would get owned by zealots.

[DemolitionSquid]

The Roach needs to support Zerglings and Banelings the same way Marauders need to support Marines and Reapers and Sentries support Zealots and Stalkers. Its that simple. If you can ignore Zerglings and spam Roaches, there's a problem. If you can ignore Marines and spam Marauders, there's a problem.

[Asfastasican]

While I would love to see hydralisks back at tier 1.5, how would the zerg deal with zealots?

Banelings just don't do enough damage, given their cost and, of course, tier 1 hydralisks would get owned by zealots.

While I realize that things have changed in SC2 with chronoboost and whatnot, we might be able to think of something. Beyond that, it would be just how Zerg dealt with Toss in SC1. Not much else has really changed if you think about it, unless you count banelings.

One major problem is no borrowing till tier 2. That's just a pain in the tush if you ask me!

[Hamshank]

The Roach needs to support Zerglings and Banelings the same way Marauders need to support Marines and Reapers and Sentries support Zealots and Stalkers. Its that simple. If you can ignore Zerglings and spam Roaches, there's a problem. If you can ignore Marines and spam Marauders, there's a problem.

Exactly, would you agree on removing the unit entirely?

[DemolitionSquid]

Exactly, would you agree on removing the unit entirely?

I don't think it needs to come to that. It just needs to be less cost-effective on its own. It needs better synergy with Zerglings instead of being so strong by itself.

[Aldrius]

I think you're mixed up a bit there, Squid.

The Baneling is the support unit. The reaper is the support unit.

The Marauder is the main tier 1.5 unit, the Roach is the tier 1.5 unit.

In the Marauder's case, it should be either your support unit (the concussion missile), or it should be your main army unit (anti-armored the stim upgrade). Right now it cane be both.

The same goes for the Roach to a lesser extent.

But I don't think the Roach needs to be more of a support unit, I just think it needs some more adjustment. So that massing it will punish you a bit more than it does now (without your opponent needing to get it's hard counter). Whether that means less DPS overall or a more specialized defense, I'm not sure.

Hydralisks at tier 1 would be a possibility, but I wouldn't want to see them as the MAIN tier 1.5 unit. I would definitely not want to see the Roach at tier 2. (Baneling if anything, should be tier 2 IMO) In general if they moved the Hydralisk down to tier 1.5 I'd want it to keep it's high gas cost and sort of act like the Reaper does now. If you go down that path, you'll need a dual gas at tier 1, and you'll be delaying all sorts of later tech.

[DemolitionSquid]

I think you're mixed up a bit there, Squid.

The Baneling is the support unit. The reaper is the support unit.

The Marauder is the main tier 1.5 unit, the Roach is the tier 1.5 unit.

I'm pointing out that this is the problem.

Does the Reaper increase the efficiency of Marines? No. It just does damage.
Does the Stalker increase the efficiency of Zealots? No. It just does damage.
Does the Baneling increase the efficiency of Zerglings? No. It just does damage.

Does the Marauder increase the efficiency of Marines? Yes. By slowing down the enemy, adding extra damage to higher HP targets, and tanking.
Does the Sentry increase the efficiency of Zealots? Yes. By putting up chokes to trap enemies, and decreasing the damage Zealots take from ranged attacks, and hallucinating other targets.
Does the Roach increase the efficiency of Zerglings? No.

How can you not see the pattern is broken?

[newcomplex]

And if they did not do all of those things, they'd be useless. Without Roaches as they are currently at Tier 1, the Zerg have no effective way to deal with Zealots. Not without having to play ultra-defensively early-game. Honestly, I'm not sure why people build Roaches against the Terrans, as there is no reason to do so early on (Banelings more effective against Marines, and Marauder's slow kills them quick and easy).

In an early stage, the ranged roach regardless of what statistics nerf you choose, would remain effective against the ranged zealot. It would only lose effectiveness once your opponent got significant amounts of stalkers.

By then, you can afford to use banelings, which are extremely effective against zealots.

This is why following the game since the first reveal is so important. Because if you have, you know that this comment is 100% wrong.

I never proposed blizzard implemented the unit to counter the roach. Units are based around some underlying theme. I am proposing that the way they are currently balanced is a direct result OF the roach.

Take the immortal. My main gripe was not the existence of its hardened sheilds, but its absurd versus armored dps of 34. I don't think it requires a stretch of imagination that this was nessicated by incidentily, the roach, and a lesser extent, the maraunder. What else would have been its utility? Against ultralisks? lol. ...thors?

You missed the gist of the argument. I don't care about the history, I care about the effects. Ok, so the roach was a t1 unit. That isn't the point. The point of contention is the effects of roaches, not the origin.

Except of course, for Hellions with their upgrade.

The rest of my points still stand about the immortal.

But that's what they're for. Marauders exist to make Terran Bio viable. They act as vital damage soakers for Marines, able to keep Bio from being entirely dominated by AoE. Immortals exist to specifically deal with high damage attacks. Units that make such attacks are invariably armored, and Immortals are elementally weak to non-armored units. Thus it is entirely reasonable for most of their damage to be focused on armored units; otherwise they wouldn't be doing their job.

"Dominated by aoe"? Haha, they do the exact opposite. They protect against banelings, sure, but as far as AoE balancing goes, it makes it off kilter.

Through the implementation of the marauder, we now have a discrepancy among unit health that was entirely unknown among units that closely complimented each other. The marine has, at best, 55 health, while the marauder has well over 2x this with 125 health. That is HUGELY problematic.

Since their designed to cluster together, aoe designed to be effective against marauders will overkill marines, causing marines to suffer more underuse, while balancing to be effective against marines will result in an underpowered spell.

That kind of HP discrepancy shouldn't exist among units, that are, figuratively and literally, "work shoulder to shoulder with each other".

It is not necessary for a unit to do more DPS then a carrier to do its job. I assure you.

Wrong but consistent

Thus far, your conclusions all seem to be drawn from faulty data.

You seem to have missed the gist of my conclusion entirely. I am attempting to analytically prove why roaches are fundementally broken. The only faulty bit of data in that regard is that in fact, hellions also do a lot more damage versus light then is normal.


I am not trying to analytically prove that the reason why immortals existed at all, or marauders, is to counter roaches, (or why thats a bad thing at all, its not) but the current, problematic incarnation of their balancing is necessitated by roaches.


Regarding the rest of your posts in this thread, well, yeah, bonus damage in upgrades, in general, is completely stupid. I would agree with that. However, specifically

No.

The Roach is locked because of Zealots. Weaken the Roach, and it becomes almost impossible to stop a Zealot rush without investing heavily in static defenses.

I don't get it. Zealots can't even hit roaches on creep. You could counter zealot rush with 10 hp roaches if you had decent micro. Your right in the way that the zerg would lack a later game counter for zealots once ranged damage becomes heavily used. But thats an entirely different gamephase, and can be balanced with different buffs to the zerg. Banelings buff, zergling upgrade at t2, roach upgrade, buff to fungal growth.....

Moreso, later game, a nerf to roaches and a nerf to immortals would really almost even themselves out as far as things go.

Marauders are not "barely" stopping Roaches currently; they stop them pretty much dead. So there is plenty of play here.

Actually they are, lategame, even after the roach nerf, a lot of progames attempt to transition into massed 3/3 roaches, which are incidentally absurdly effective against everything, even marauders.

I think the question is invalid. Take SC1. If I said, "Something big needs to happen to Hydralisks in Tier 1." Could you suggest a change that wouldn't break the delicate balance of SC1?

Being unable to make major changes to one unit without ransacking the whole game is a sign of a balanced game. Not a broken one.

I disagree entirely. Every unit needs a distinctive role, if you were to remove that role, the race should be underpowered. If it is not, their was overlap.

[BnetGamer77]

I'm pointing out that this is the problem.

Does the Reaper increase the efficiency of Marines? No. It just does damage.
Does the Stalker increase the efficiency of Zealots? No. It just does damage.
Does the Baneling increase the efficiency of Zerglings? No. It just does damage.

Does the Marauder increase the efficiency of Marines? Yes. By slowing down the enemy, adding extra damage to higher HP targets, and tanking.
Does the Sentry increase the efficiency of Zealots? Yes. By putting up chokes to trap enemies, and decreasing the damage Zealots take from ranged attacks, and hallucinating other targets.
Does the Roach increase the efficiency of Zerglings? No.

How can you not see the pattern is broken?

The one thing I did get out that is I do wish the Zerglings had more a role to play.

Unless you micro them just right to flank a group weak vs them...they just tend to get in the way. Speedlings hold up rather well vs a group of M&m's granted no stim/drop ship - but other wise, they just feel so left out.

As a Zerg player I use the Roach because of it's key role - but I'd agree if there was a way to lessen that role or bring the zergling more up to par with it I'd be much more happy with the early Zerg game.

As far as how that would be done...I'm stumped ^_^

[Nicol Bolas]

"Dominated by aoe"? Haha, they do the exact opposite. They protect against banelings, sure, but as far as AoE balancing goes, it makes it off kilter.

How? AoE is the sole reason why bio was never viable in SC1 vs. Terran or Protoss. Psi Storm and Siege Tanks made bio worthless.

I wouldn't call making something viable as being "off kilter."

Since their designed to cluster together, aoe designed to be effective against marauders will overkill marines, causing marines to suffer more underuse, while balancing to be effective against marines will result in an underpowered spell.

Exactly. Because of that, Barracks-based builds can actually be useful in the presence of AoE. As opposed to the insta-lose that they are now.

AoE is not something that micro can overcome. You can't just fight through it or out-smart it. If they have AoE, you lose. Period, end of story. Hard counters don't get harder than this.

Zealots can't even hit roaches on creep. You could counter zealot rush with 10 hp roaches if you had decent micro.

If by "decent micro", you mean "can constantly kite them", then yes. However, having to heavily micro and babysit a unit just to have it do its job is not a good unit.

I am attempting to analytically prove why roaches are fundementally broken.

But you've failed. You based your arguments on things that aren't true, and your logic doesn't correspond to how units actually work in the game.

the current, problematic incarnation of their balancing is necessitated by roaches.

There is no "current, problematic incarnation of their balancing;" what you're talking about doesn't exist.

You can freely nerf Marauders. You may need to weak other units, but as long as they have their Hp and decent damage output, you won't suddenly make Terrans prey to mass Roaches. Something similar goes for Immortals.

Actually they are, lategame, even after the roach nerf, a lot of progames attempt to transition into massed 3/3 roaches, which are incidentally absurdly effective against everything, even marauders.

That makes no sense. 3/3 Marauders will slaughter them easily. Roaches can be easily kited, and with the various Organic Carapace nerfs, this does nothing to make Roaches better against Marauders.