Zerg, the most mundane race to play?

[Crazy_Jonny]

Huh, this is wrong. At least the part about Creep Tumors. They are extremely useful and important as Skyze said.

Many top players now started to build Creep Tumors all over the map because they give you vision of that part of the map for free, you don't have to send there Overlord, and Creep Tumors are invisible after all.
They also spread creep which is very important aspect of the Zerg race. 30% MS is a lot, the fastest units in SC2 are currently Zerglings on creep.

About the healing, yes it is situational, but so are many other abilities. With 2 Queens, you can successfully defend against M&M timing attack because you can heal your Spine Crawlers.

I actually didn't notice creep tumors were invisible. I guess when you think about it, overlords are way more vulnerable and such. Since queens are cheap it's a decent competing ability.

I'm still not too sure about transfusion. I guess now that static Ds are more buffed, it might be worth it to use transfusion in the way you said, but I'll just leave that alone until I've actually used it in a competitive match.

So yeah, some hidden uses to these abilities I never thought about.

[GRUNT]

Yeah, I can post my recent reps, I've had a pretty heavy losing streak as random due to consistently getting PvP and TvT (zomg so bad at them), so I switched to zerg. Got myself out of a 6 loss hole back to 5050 in 7 games as zerg.


Let me point how how the dynamic of Zerg, in my mediocre gold league perspective, works. I feel as I have a very innate advantage that comes out of a early expansion (really, as far as ladder goes, just 13/14 hatch every game, the few games you lose due to cheese become a statistic, a acceptable risk). THEY need to respond to this, because while I have an innate econ advantage, I have an innate tech and army disadvantage. Zerg however, can quickly muster up an army, and can transition tech the most easily.

Your measure of success is how effectively you can retain your strategy despite their adaptation. Their measure of success is how well they can adapt, and force you to adapt. (this excludes ZvZ obviously)

Heres a basic summation of the matchups.

In ZvT, the optimal build is going Zerglings/banelings after a early hatchery. Some people expand as early as 13, others wait until a safer 19. Its personal preference. Unless you want to run a riskier strategy (don't want to say cheese), to say, baneling bust if they're hardteching, this is what your going to adhere to every time.

They have several options. Doing nothing is not one of them. If they play "normally", you simply outecon them. If they go heavy marines, kill with banelings and mop with zergling and mutas. Tech to broodlords while expanding over half the map, containing them with heavy muta harass and banelings. I've never lost this MU if they don't adapt. You simply steamroll them.

This is the same with ZvP. They need to react. Without reacting, their is simply no way they can win.

They need to react. Its all about predicting how they react and defending accordingly. A hard early push with MM army is the prefered option. You need to outmicro them with zergling/banelings. If they don't send in heavy harrassment, assume a tech to banshees and react with AA or straighttech to mutas. If they're smart, they'll try and make you overinvest into zerglings/banelings and kill you with upgraded hellions. Predict and add in roaches. If they early expand, you need to either take it out with early zergling/baneling/roach push, or take a early 3rd expansion.

Your success is measured by how well you defended your additional expo. A flawless defense is a easy tech to mutas, containing them with banelings, and securing a rediculous econ advantage, or just winning. A flawed defense means they've successfully negated your advantage. They've delayed mutas to secure their own expo. Your going to have to match that. Or, likely, a extremely well timed push will simply end the game. If they time their MM push to catch you off guard, without at least 4-5 banelings, it can often be GG. If you've overinvested in zerglings, they'll wipe the floor with you using mass hellions, timed right before mutas come out. And if you've failed to tech fast enough, they'll get you with banshees.

Similar story versus P. They'll pressure you to over invest in roaches, undertech, and kill you with immortals/stalkers. An early 4 zealots can deny a expo outright. Mutas are subpar, roach/hydra is better, and your success is once again determined by how well you stick to your plan. Their going to try to time their pushes during weak spots. You need to fill in weak spots.


(As for ZvZ I just win all my games going a build outlined below at TL. Also its nice because it opens the same as my normal build so It doesn't even matter if I fight random lol

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=117763)

Perhaps react was a bad word choice. Zerg are the most reactive race. What you aren't is proactive. You will almost never need to stop THEM from doing something. They will be constantly try to stop you, all you need to do is react accordingly.


Here are some replays from recent games. I'm bad, and I just got back from a 4 day trip to Boston (sadly not PAX related ), if you think you could benefit them. I think theirs one lost in their, I haven't played too much since the patch, and I thought he was just trying to catch me off guard with banshees. I wasn't expecting heavy investment, and their strength surprised me. I could have won easy with more hydralisks and less roaches.

Or if I had been less retarded and hadn't spend 20 seconds looking for where I put my overseer xD.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPU6YGXS

(Hope I'm not too bad and I didn't waste your time with those replays...I'm hardly the kind of player who could be teaching other people through the sharing of replays lol)


That being said while I like what the Zerg macro mechanic does, I think its the most retarded. Why doesn't my queen just automatically cast it? lol. I'm not going to be casting it on anything other then a hatchery, and the confliction with creep tumors (you only need 1 :/) isn't enough to warrant disabling it :/

At the very least I think they should put transfusion and spawn larva into one spell, nerf it, and make it so it heals ~90 when cast on units or nonhatchery buildings.

A little bit back on topic, yeah, I really can see how Z are the most mundane race to play. They rely on adhering to their strategy and adapting it as they go other races are based around proactively deciding a strategy to play in order to counter yours. They need to be the actors, you are a reactor.

You and I are on the same page, newcomplex - I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said there .

That said, despite their predictability, I don't find Zerg to be a boring race to play. I may not be the best player, but I still get a kick from seeing masses of Hydras and Roaches tear through stuff .

I also find using Queens quite fun, despite the fact that you almost always want to use Spawn Larvae . You might also need more than 1 creep tumour in case one gets destroyed :].

To me, the fact that Zerg don't feel as though they have as many options as other races is an appealing factor in itself . It feels so heavy-handed...like some inexorable force .

Thanks for the replays! I'll check them out soon, and I'm sure they'll be very educational .








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[Wankey]

I didn't mean to say the creep tumors are not useful, I just find them incredibly boring to setup. For instance, my queen, which is really just an add on to my hatchery has to walk over to plant it. I have to do the mundane thing of waiting for a creep tumor to setup, clicking the creep tumor to create another creep tumor. None of this has any choice since it's the best case scenario for me. Not only that creep tumor only comes into play when my macro goes down and boosting the hatchery produces extra mana to use for creep tumor.

Like what I"m saying is that you *know* you need to setup a creep tumor sooner or later just to get the avalanche of creep coming but it's just such pointless mechanic. The Overlord should be the only unit capable of producing creep by dropping one creep tumor each with the creep spread.

[Nenol-phoenix]

... my queen, which is really just an add on to my hatchery...

THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT
The queen is a UNIT not a walking building and you can build more than one per hatch, I don't have a beta key but does it really hurt your economy to build another queen?

[Aldrius]

THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT
The queen is a UNIT not a walking building and you can build more than one per hatch, I don't have a beta key but does it really hurt your economy to build another queen?

No. People just don't bother because she can't leave the creep, and they haven't tried out transfusion much.

Personally I always build three queens asap. Air defense, transfusion and extra creep tumors! Useful stuff.

[Nicol Bolas]

What can be done to improve this problem?

There isn't one, because the problem you describe is entirely phantasmal, made up by your preconceived notions about what a race should or should not be/do.

First, your complaints about the units have nothing to do with them being "mundane".

Your unit complaints basically boil down to, "I can't just mass up one or two units and A-move and win! Waaaah!" Yes, Zerglings don't do as much damage as they used to. They're still the fastest unit in the game, and they still can dish out a lot of damage. Properly used, they're a very effective addition to any force. Speed Zerglings are great for defense or backstabbing.

So what if Hydralisks aren't as massable as they were before? They're a hell of a lot stronger, so long as you can keep them alive. Which makes them far less mundane and far more interesting than a "no weaknesses" unit.

The reason why the Roach exists is so that it can effectively protect other units. Melee units can't get to your precious Hydralisks or Infestors, because there are Roaches in the way. And so forth.

It's either GG or you get screwed since Zerg air is either all anti-air or all anti-ground. There isn't a middle ground (ie, mutalisks + guardian combo is gone, mutalisks + brood lord combo now requires 3 units instead of just building one)

Are you saying that your skills are so weak that you can't even decide to add a few Mutalisks to your Corruptor/Brood Lord ball? That pressing "T" rather than "C" a few times is not possible for you?

I'm sorry, but I can't sympathize with your lack of ability to decide what unit to produce. I can't imagine how you function as Terran or Protoss; they have to decide what to produce and then make enough production buildings for those units to produce them fast enough. All you're asked to do as a Zerg is decide how many times to hit "C" rather than "T".

I didn't mean to say the creep tumors are not useful, I just find them incredibly boring to setup. For instance, my queen, which is really just an add on to my hatchery has to walk over to plant it. I have to do the mundane thing of waiting for a creep tumor to setup, clicking the creep tumor to create another creep tumor.

So, your problem is that you can't be bothered to wait for a unit to make a building, and then to order that building to do something later. Really? That's too "boring" for you? How would Creep Colonies or any other alternate form of creep expansion be less boring for you? You still have to move it to the location, press a button, and wait for the creep to expand.

If you don't have the multitasking skills and the awareness to expand the creep properly, just say so. That doesn't make it a bad mechanic.

[don]

How about making those crawlers glass cannons? Double their damage and halve their HP. What would happen?

They would be more viable as attack units that you crawl around the map as you spread creep... sort of like Zerg Siege Tanks. You move them around and defend them with your army. This would also synergize well with the creep tumor and the ability of the queen to heal buildings.

[Perfecttear]

I also was an zerg player in sc1 ,and the zerg are my favorite race ( i like the feel and atmosphere), but i switched to terran(my most hated race in sc1) in sc2 after 3 days of playing the zerg. I just couldn't get used to spawn larva.

[Nicol Bolas]

They would be more viable as attack units

And thus less viable as defensive buildings. Which the Zerg kinda need them to be.

That being said, I would be all for a Tier 2 unit that was stronger in some way while on the creep.

[RamiZ]

I also was an zerg player in sc1 ,and the zerg are my favorite race ( i like the feel and atmosphere), but i switched to terran(my most hated race in sc1) in sc2 after 3 days of playing the zerg. I just couldn't get used to spawn larva.

But Mules are ok? Sorry, I don't get it...