The Zerg Players thread

[GuaiLow]

Yeah THx but every time i attempt an early hatchery it seems to get taken out, you are saying to protect it with zerglings and banelings so i was wondering how early in terms of food would you get your extractor/s, evolution chamber and banelings nest also when to lair.
When i get it right i harass with as many zerglings as available until they seem ineffective and then i go for mass hydra this seems similar to your strat. However i was in copper league...so i am obviously a lot slower.
Also i understand that as soon as the queen is available ie. as soon as spawning pool goes down to get the queen, is this right? I use the inject larvae or whatever when ever i can and if i have spare energy i place a creep tumour. Is this good use?
Sorry for all the questions... i am a noob after all

[Hammy]

I have no idea how this would bare in the copper leagues, but maybe the other build would be better. Nevertheless here is my approximate build against 2-gate pressuring protoss:

-13pool
-15hatch
-14queen (you'll have 150 as soon as pool pops, and you can then make a pair of lings if necessary)
-18extractor
-baneling nest with first 50 gas off one extractor
-metabolic boost with next 100gas (if he continues to pressure, otherwise tech to lair)
-queen when hatch is at 50%

Then it really depends on the game. You add on lings and banelings depending on what you scout, and if he isn't being aggressive just mass drones. You'll rarely need more than 6 banelings at a time, so once you can spare the 100gas you can tech to T2 and add one or two extractors. Hydra den needs to go up the instant your lair is done.

With this build your evo chamber will be a bit later since you'll be needing all of your gas for hydra and range upgrades.

"Also i understand that as soon as the queen is available ie. as soon as spawning pool goes down to get the queen, is this right? I use the inject larvae or whatever when ever i can and if i have spare energy i place a creep tumour. Is this good use?"
Absolutely right. Inject larvae should always be your top priority.

[Todie]

i havnt played enough lately to polish my approach to it, but i guess delaying gas makes sense with the early 2nd queen defence. question is, delayed with how much?

also, iv been betting away with it without roaches and metabolic boost upgrade after starting lair probably against inferior players. but you're right, roaches are less gas heavy and synergize better with queens, so if the map isnt too huge, ill try that - still unsure about timing though, but minierals usualy isnt that scarce with late gas i geuss...

[Hammy]

Yeah. Unfortunately how much you need to delay gas really depends on the game. How long you really need those 4 extra drones depends on how many larvae you've had to spend on zerglings really.

If I can find a trend or some numbers i'll be sure to share, but I definitely haven't played enough games to suggest anything in that regard.

[Blackdogkt]

I'm starting to get disappointed and thinking of learning another race to be honest. And it's not so much about the zerg per se, it's that every single map has chokepoints to wall off behind.

I've been playing some practice games against a buddy that picks protoss. He was better than me in the original SC:BW until i managed to get really good macro and then we'd be 50/50 between wins and losses, he has less experience with SC2 but his brother managed to climb to platinum before the last reset and he has some good advice as a result.

The way most of my games go is this: if i favor a tech/macro build i get rushed or harassed and stay behind, if i opt for early harassment myself or a baneling bust he techs to air and if i tech to air he attacks me with ground units that are superior, thanks to the protoss higher HP and chronoboosted upgrades.

Unless the map is small or has a wide ramp and i 10-pool, i can neither scout effectively nor apply any early pressure that will allow me to create an advantage in the early game.

I tried some muta harass while mixing in roaches and hydras with my zerglings, 3-4 infestors and aggressive macro in some of the latest practice games we've had, but it seems i still can't figure out the balance between making units and making drones/macroing. In that game i had a vastly superior economy and more units, which promptly melted when he pushed against one of my expos with a dozen stalkers and 4-5 high templars. The funny thing is that the templars didn't really get any good psi storms off (only 1-2 and they only hit a few lings), as i managed to focus down most of them with my mutas while they were in transition. It was mostly the stalkers that completely melted my group of lings, roaches and hydras and i also had lvl2 melee upgrades and lvl2 armor upgrades. I also avoided running them into his army single file, i gathered them behind my expo and waited until he attacked the hatch before i moved them in.

Another thing that completely negates anything i might do is early phoenix harass. He just picks up the queens and kills them, so i have no anti-air left and then he goes overlord hunting. All he needs to do is go gateway, cybercore and place 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry on his ramp. Meanwhile at the back of his base he's getting 3 phoenixes and that's it.

I know i'm not the brightest player around and i'm not looking for the game to be balanced around the race i like to play. However, i'm really at a loss because of a combination of these two factors: a) everyone can wall off behind his ramp and deny you scouting or any kind of early harass with ground units, simply by placing a handful of their troops among their buildings and b) tech to something that you don't know what it is in the meantime. Most of the times this is air, as when you are focused on taking down his front door to do some damage your tier2 upgrades are delayed, leacing you with no real anti-air. This is compounded by my usual problem of not knowing when to push, sometimes i wait too long and sometimes i don't have enough units.

If the hydra was 75/25, 75HP and tier 1.5 like in the original it would be so much simpler. Plus, i recently discovered some damage tables and the lings are probably the only unit to have a reduced DPS in comparison to the original, so you can't really just force your way through the door early on to have a chance at creating an advantage.

I really want to like the new zerg and they have some cool tricks, but it seems to me that they lost some of their simplicity and swarming nature without gaining any "turn the game around in an instant" units/abilities in return. The exception is the infestor, which is an expensive mid-game unit.

From my point of view what's missing is a solid ranged unit that can attack air in tier1, so that you can cover a few basic angles and go for there. I would prefer swapping the hydras to T1.5 and the roaches to T2. The way it is now i either have to guess what they are doing, sacrifice overlords to scout, go all-in banelings/zerglings for a chance at breaking their front door or invest in spore crawlers. The first option is of course laughable, the other three just delay my economy while the opponent either gets a sizable ground army with upgrades or techs to something i can't counter in time.

Of course much of it is probably my fault and lack of skill. Zerg are no push-over but it doesn't take a genius to realize that they need some restructuring as a race. This is all the more obvious in mirror matches, where we've gone from all-in roach to all-in lings. I watched 2-3 high level games yesterday on a live stream and all the ZvZ matches revolved around zerglings/banelings. The moment someone tried to tech to something better, he was simply getting overrun by the other guy.

All this is not only a matter of resources, i have plenty in every game i lose. It's mostly a matter of time, the time needed to upgrade the hatch to lair and lay down the appropriate building to build the counters, starting from the time that you manage to scout there's trouble coming. Usually for me, this is when the other guy decides to come out from behind his wall off and make a push, thereby revealing his units.

It seems like there's not enough diversity and when it's obvious to everyone that opening with imaginative builds is difficult/restrictive, then it's only a matter of time before the handful of basic openers are studied and countered.

Of course, the original Zerg in SC:BW were not really masters of variety either, but it worked. I think this also has to do with the fact that all races have "whacky" ranged units, for lack of a better word. Roaches, marauders and immortals are not only ranged but also "tank" units that do quite a lot of damage. This affects the melee units of all races, but it mostly affects the race that has to rely on melee units the longer in the early game.

[Blackdogkt]

Sorry for having two posts back to back, if there's a rule against it then feel free to merge them. However, i wanted to share something i saw in my placements matches (hadn't finished them with all the bnet downtime after the last reset).

I managed to win the initial 3. In matches 2 and 3 i was facing a terran on blistering sands and a protoss on metalopolis respectively. They both tried to tech straight to battlecruiser/carrier, i managed to break in through the rocks and kill the terran's base and in the next game i finally managed to get some good timings and have enough hydras to go against the 4-5 carriers of the protoss player.

So i'm feeling a bit confident, even if worried that i might land a league that's above my real skill level because of winning the majority of the placement matches thanks to my opponents going straight for T3.

Lo and behold, on match 4 i'm facing a random player in scrap station so i send the overlord out to scout across the gap. The rush distance is small but not that small, so i'm going for a 12-13 pool or thereabouts. When doing so, i usually send the 10th drone to scout but in this case the air distance between spawns is small, so i relied on the overlord to crawl there. So, just as i'm gaining vision i see a pool already down and completed. I can't do much at this point than stick to my build, he comes in with 6 lings and i manage to fend them off by taking drones off the line and surrounding him until my own lings pop out. He makes another dash a bit later but i have a queen too, the 3rd time i also have a couple spine crawlers so i hold him off. However, it's obvious to me that i'm behind, having had to replace so many drones and of course he shows up with mutas. I kill most of them while simultaneously attacking his base with lings and banes (i had 2 queens+spores, as i was expecting the muta switch), but i naturally lose the game as i'm so far behind on economy.

Next match i'm going ZvZ again on metalopolis and i'm doing a similar build. The exact same thing happens and i get curious. I watch the build order screens and match replays... surprise surprise! It's a 5-pool!

My question is, how much does this set you back if it's not an outright win for you or a severe setback for the opponent? Is it an all-in approach or can you transition to a normal build down the road?

Also, with the way that most ZvZ goes, i can't blame people for wanting to get the match out of the way fast, hence cheesing to get a fast win or risk loosing quickly. However, would it be viable against more than zerg? The reason i'm asking is that seeing so much wall-off followed by fast tech to air, or even downright cheese from terran and protoss lately, i was thinking of starting to 5-pool myself in smaller maps. It doesn't end the game there and then, but probably sets him back enough so that you can probably forgo ling speed upgrade for a later time and go straight for mutas or hydras before he has a chance to bounce back.

[Todie]

i agree with your general concerns about zerg. but idk what to say about it atm, and this sint the palce anyway; this is the strategy forum.

you generally need to be quite crisp with your timing and your recon / intuition on enemy action when playing zerg. you gotta value what youre given though: yuo can generaly run a ling up the ramp and see whats up right there - and see what isnt up - also, poke in an overlord if you are seriously curios about wahts going on. sometimes thats worth doing even if youre almost certain it'll get killed.

.. playing zerg is about making tough decisions and sticking with them; if you want to bust in, make damn sure that its possible to being with and commit sufficiently to actually braking in and causing enough damage to make it worthwhile. - never neglect the possibility of making a strong bust-play; a strong zerg earlygame that includes banelings will destroy anyone that doesnt specifically prepare for it and build their game around surviving it (read blocks ramp with sturdy buildings / is ready with sentry for FF on ramp)

... if your powering econ and expanding sintead of busting, its all about making just enough of the just right defenses to survive an attack without taking a hit to your economy. and when youre in the dark, flexibility is key; if youre worried about air. get queens. be careful about getting spores before youre sure you need them.


you start with 6 drones so its refereed to as 6pool afaik. i cant recall ever trying it, but ive beaten it a few times - cant recall ever losing to it.

i think its an all-in move in a sense; it needs to deal A LOT of damage for the 6-pooling player to brake even with it.

its a gamble for sure: if your opponent happens to make an early rax/gate/pool say at around 10 supply, then he will be able to get his frist unit(s) out at least quite shortly after your zergligns arive, and if he's smart about when & where to run his workers / fight with them, he's gonna sue that first unit + workers to kill the ligns and come out ahead.

faster rax/gate/pool is surely more common on smaller maps, and even vs "slwoer" builds, youre not guaranteed to come out ahead if he's smart about worker-micro.

i would certainly not expect to win 50% of the time with 6 pool on any decent level of play. even on small maps.


... id sooner try a drone harass to deny ramp-block, followed by a 10pool, or somethign like that.

good luck.

[Blackdogkt]

Pretty cool suggestions overall, thanks a lot for the feedback

I've been playing some 2v2 lately and while i do still make a lot of mistakes (i get tired after a few games, my peak is usually after the first couple "warm up" matches), the occasional need to deal with 2 opponents while my teammate is teching, or defending against void rays in my main while i also have most of my army on the offensive has helped me better my timings and multitasking immensely.

As Day9 says in his commentaries, it's usually best to focus on one thing for a few games until the muscle memory sets in. Of course, too much "self-automation" might be bad as well since it cuts into one's adaptability, but i have a very long way to go until i have to worry about that.
At present i'm getting the timings tightened up and learning to defend against early harass with queen/ling/crawler micro, or going on the offensive and harassing myself. Pretty satisfying when it works to be honest

[Drake Clawfang]

I usually go 10-pool with no Ovie, then go for an Ovie while the Pool is mutating, and once the second Ovie is on the way I save up. Usually I have 300 Minerals when the Pool finishes, so I immediately call up a Queen and three Zerglings. Send the lings off to the enemy base (now at 15/18) and call up a third Ovie. Queen pops up, I immediately Spawn Larva, produce 14 lings at once and, assuming I liked what I saw when the first six lings got there, send them off to the enemy base to continue the rush and keep the pressure on, keeping my base producing extra Larva with the Queen.

If the rush fails, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, I fall back to Gas, expand while mutating a Lair or just before. Then I set pumping out Zerglings, Hydralisks, Overseers, researching the appropriate upgrades and spreading Creep around with Tumors and keeping the Hatcheries producing bonus Larva. When my Overseers are grouped six or more I send them out to harass with Infested Terrans and to look for expansions to take out. At this point, depending on how well-defended their base is, I either do a Nydus Worm invasion with Hydras and Lings, or go for Mutas and attack with Mutas and Overseers, either distracting them while the ground forces go for a frontal assault or punching a hole in their perimeter to let my Worm pop in.

Sometimes, depending on the opponent's units and mine, I may make a Spine Crawler to help defend the base early on if the rush fails and they try a counter-attack. With the Queen and another six lings with the Crawler, I can usually hold my choke okay, but TBH I rarely get counter-attacked if my rush fails. I rely too much on Nydus Worms sometimes though and want to incorporate Brood Lords into my build to help punch through defenses. I usually only go Hive for Zergling attack rate, but I know I can get a lot more out of that. I'm also gonna start sending a normal Overlord with my Overseer harassing to spread Creep for my Infested Terrans. I haven't used Banelings much but am gonna check them out.

Overall though, I have been a lot more successful playing Zerg than the other two races, and have stuck with it for the last few days. I've won some, lost some with this, but I've really shot up the ranks in my league and am now Rank 1 in the Bronze division, or whatever you call it (at least I was Rank 1 when I quit earlier).

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EDIT - Question for ZvZ. In ZvT and ZvP obviously I expand the Creep all over the map when I can. But for ZvZ, the enemy Zerg gets the same Creep bonuses I do, so what do I do in terms of expanding my Creep?

[Todie]

EDIT - Question for ZvZ. In ZvT and ZvP obviously I expand the Creep all over the map when I can. But for ZvZ, the enemy Zerg gets the same Creep bonuses I do, so what do I do in terms of expanding my Creep?

link yuor bases up and cover important nearby chokepoints. if you go beyond that, make sure you maintain control over it with ground units; if you are able to obtain map control, that means you are the only one safe to move around - on your creep.

ling-bypassing is nasty though. so be careful.