The Zerg Players thread

[Nicol Bolas]

People need to use the Extractor trick more. It really lets you have a smoother build order, without having to stop at 9 to make your Overlord so that you don't block on 3 Larva.

[Hammy]

I was typing a long text asking whether this had been tested and reminding people that cancelling an extractor doesn't cost 6 minerals: it effectively costs 10 minerals, since minerals are spent and returned in increments of 5 (until you cancel another building, which isn't going to happen in the early game).

Here is the test I conducted:

I played three games, using three different build order "tactics". To standardize the test, I never split my drones at the beginning. I just clicked on the nearest mineral patch and let them do their work (this test is about comparing builds amongst each other, which requires as much normalization as possible).

Also, the general build older was always:
-13 pool
-14 extractor
-16 queen
-18 zergling (just the one, since it's standard to chase the enemy worker if you want to expand, or just to scout)
-Speed at exactly 100 gas
-21 drone (check the time at which I made my last drone before queen is done)
Perhaps the 13pool is a bad choice, and we might test this in our next installement, but this isn't the issue here (though I love this build).

To get an idea of which BO "tactic" is best, I used the "build order" tab when a game ends, and wrote down the timings for the spawning pool, the queen, the zergling, zergling speed (which means 100 gas) and 21st drone (last unit built before queen pops). Many of these timings are redundant, but I took all of them to weed out human mistakes.

Hidden Content:

Game1: The 9 Overlord build!
-13 pool: 1:49
-16 queen: 2:54
-18 zergling: 3:07
-zergling speed: 3:34
-21st drone: 3:37

Game2: Regular 10 Overlord build!
-13 pool: 1:48
-16 queen: 2:54
-18 zergling: 3:07
-zergling speed: 3:34
-21st drone: 3:37

Game3: The 10 Overlord with extractor trick!
-13 pool: 1:49
-16 queen: 2:55
-18 zergling: 3:07
-zergling speed: 3:34 (amazing how accurate this is, considering the variability in building extractor, beginning to mine gas etc...)
-21st drone: 3:39 (I slacked off here, pretty sure it should have been at around 3:37. In my defense it's been a long day^^ I checked the replay, and yeah the larvae poped a bit before I began to build).

Results:

Well the timings are all the same (no this isn't rigged, I'm really suprised by how close these number are). I don't think a 1s difference is a relevant result since we're talking about fractions of seconds here. I was spamming with hotkey and mouse click to try to make the results accurate, but there's still AI and human response to take into consideration .

Conclusions:

=> The three builds are identical! Do whichever you like. You should note that the extractor trick makes you lose 2x "drone returning minerals", and that in this test I got lucky:
My drone started building the extractor and my 10th(11th) drone started morphing at exactly 75minerals. Also, when I canceled the extractor, the closest mineral patch was cleared to avoid losing time in mining. I think I executed this well (doesn't always happen like this), but it's easy to get an extractor trick a few seconds off when massing games (which means this isn't my prefered choice).

=> Based on what I've got here, just like in SC:BW, your larvae production doesn't seem to stop at 3 larvae. Of course the 4th larvae won't pop, but the respawn cooldown will begin. Perhaps there's a minimum respawn time, but in the 10overlord build, that minimum respawn time (if it exists) doesn't apply. Basically, when using a 10 overlord build, you're not wasting larvae spawn time, since none of my prior units were delayed.


Too long:didn't read:
9 overlord = 10 overlord = 10 overlord w/ extractor trick

[Gradius]

That's bizarre. Thanks for the tests Hammy!

[Todie]

what about double extractor trick?

[Sarov]

I'm so proud of myself today. I've been on a losing streak during Practice League and Placement Matches. I was complaining that I wasn't learning anything at all and that I should just quit. And then my last Placement match. It was against a Zerg player who was also favoured. I seriously thought I was going to lose but decided to give it one last try. I opened up with a late (10 pool?) pool. Made two pairs of zerglings. Things kept going until I got hydras. Luckily for me, I had been collecting gas from both geysers the entire time. So I basically massed hydralisks and kept sending them wave after wave at this guy. I made sure to get the range upgrade and Carapace and Missile Attacks Upgrade 1. He managed to expand to two bases and I still took him down. Man, was I surprised! Pleasantly of course but still surprised.

TLDR version: I won as Zerg against a Zerg player who was favoured despite the fact that I was losing in the beginning.

I'll post the replay in a bit but for now it's time to take on the copper league! I may not be the greatest player but at least I've proven that there is some hope for me.

I'm also looking for anyone who is good with Zerg to help coach me every now and then. I would really appreciate it.

[TWD]

To get an idea of which BO "tactic" is best, I used the "build order" tab when a game ends, and wrote down the timings for the spawning pool, the queen, the zergling, zergling speed (which means 100 gas) and 21st drone (last unit built before queen pops). Many of these timings are redundant, but I took all of them to weed out human mistakes.

I agree with your results. For early game Zerg the biggest bottleneck is larvae. None of these tricks speeds up the number of larvae that you get, and hence the time you get subsequent things ends up being the same.

However, there could be a small mineral difference in the 3 builds. I'm not sure if that difference would be within the margin of error or not. Either way I doubt it would be a big enough difference to justify the hassle.
________
WIKI VAPORIZER

[Islandsnake]

Sarov you know you can count on my for coaching just ask ;d

[GRUNT]

Sarov you know you can count on my for coaching just ask ;d

When I tried to send you a message, it said that you had the maximum number of chat windows open. >=(


@ the Extractor trick issue - I noticed that even in the Teamliquid Invitational, the Zergs don't really do the Extractor trick. If it's not used at such a good level of play, then it can't be that beneficial. Like Hammy's tests seem to indicate, I'm pretty sure that it all works out about the same .

[Sarov]

When I tried to send you a message, it said that you had the maximum number of chat windows open. >=(

Might be because I'm always talking to him when he's on and he's usually talking to me - among other people of course.

[Islandsnake]

Woah you can have max windows open LOL bnet needs some serious improvements.

Try again grunt, you should add ure name to the thread!