Feedback needs to go.

[SoFool]

*sry double post, remove this one*

[arthas]

I thought Phase Shift was a pretty useful skill, I wonder why did blizz remove it although it's clear that Feedback is much more powerful than Phase Shift. And storm is much more efficient to cast than Feedback since there's always an army walking around.

Because it couldn't be cast on allies,and cuz some idiot though they should stick to old stuff(sc1) :X

[Aldrius]

Because it couldn't be cast on allies,and cuz some idiot though they should stick to old stuff(sc1) :X

Nobody really used it... and I doubt that it would have been all that much more useful if it could be cast on allies.

But mostly I think it was for countering ghosts with EMP. More than anything.

But anyway, I think phase shift would have found some use against colossi and immortals and ultralisks and thors and things storm just isn't all that great against.

[milo]

heaven forbid a strategy game requires some skill and isnt as cut and dry as unit A beats unit B. Whats bad RTS design is a race having a glaring weakness to a unit combo or strategy and not having a way to counter it.

StarCraft is never 'as cut and dry as unit A beats unit B' when there are opportunities to micro. And I don't know why you people keep bringing up 'skill' when Ghosts and HT face off - it's the equivalent of trying to micro a marine against another marine that have 1 hp each. All you can do is click and hope your AI acts first.

And you're not understanding why it's bad RTS design either. If A counters B, and B counters A, this kills gameplay. It doesn't promote unit diversity and forces the metagame to stagnate, because when you lose your A to some B, the only strategy is to get more A. This is especially true in the case of Ghost v HT because these units also do well against everything else the opposing race can throw at you. If the Toss player doesn't feedback Ghosts, everything they ever build will be EMP'd. If the Terran player doesn't EMP Templar, everything they ever build will be Stormed/Feedbacked. This will never change. Can you see why this is a very bad thing?

The solution here isn't to nerf Feedback, or buff Snipe. The correct way to fix this is to move Protoss' Ghost counter onto some other unit, that way when Terrans get Ghosts to counter your Templar, you get the Ghost counter, which then forces the T to adapt his strategy to this new unit. Gameplay diversifies and moves on from there.

Considering that PvT is considered heavily P favored right now, even with EMP as is, I'm not sure EMP even needs to be nerfed. Time will tell.

[flak4321]

StarCraft is never 'as cut and dry as unit A beats unit B' when there are opportunities to micro. And I don't know why you people keep bringing up 'skill' when Ghosts and HT face off - it's the equivalent of trying to micro a marine against another marine that have 1 hp each. All you can do is click and hope your AI acts first.

And you're not understanding why it's bad RTS design either. If A counters B, and B counters A, this kills gameplay. It doesn't promote unit diversity and forces the metagame to stagnate, because when you lose your A to some B, the only strategy is to get more A. This is especially true in the case of Ghost v HT because these units also do well against everything else the opposing race can throw at you. If the Toss player doesn't feedback Ghosts, everything they ever build will be EMP'd. If the Terran player doesn't EMP Templar, everything they ever build will be Stormed/Feedbacked. This will never change. Can you see why this is a very bad thing?

The solution here isn't to nerf Feedback, or buff Snipe. The correct way to fix this is to move Protoss' Ghost counter onto some other unit, that way when Terrans get Ghosts to counter your Templar, you get the Ghost counter, which then forces the T to adapt his strategy to this new unit. Gameplay diversifies and moves on from there.

Considering that PvT is considered heavily P favored right now, even with EMP as is, I'm not sure EMP even needs to be nerfed. Time will tell.

First of all, there is skill required in a Ghost vs. HT matchup because EMP and Storm are AoE abilities, which means they can be avoided. However, snipe is a targetted ability (meaning you choose a unit instead of an area), which means unavoidable. I've not seen feedback used yet, so I can't say for certain, but it seems from this and its predecessor thread that feedback is also targetted, and likely inavoidable as well. (someone please confirm )

This is a "who shoots first" matchup between these abilities if we have no other units available. However, since these units are far too fragile to leave alone (even a lone ghost/HT sent to nuke or harass still likely has a medivac that just dropped it off) and are rarely used in such fashion. The key is to know your secondary counters. Colossi w/ range upgrade grants a range of 9, supposedly, so with an observer or two, Protoss now has a secondary counter. We could also count air units that have greater speed than the ghost (again with detection). Broodlord with an Overseer for Zerg would be their secondary counter. Terran won't need detection against HT, so two words: Siege Tanks. For TvT, build some sensor towers/turrets and keep your units sufficiently behind your turrets (whichever has detection). Please don't claim there is no counter before employing some imagination, mankind's greatest skill.

[milo]

I put an emphasis on the 'who shoots who first' part because if either party loses their casters, their chances of winning the skirmish plummet.

Feedback is targetted and unavoidable.

You're right about the secondary counters too, which is why Terrans are losing to Protoss so much right now. Even if they get an EMP or two off, they're still melted by Collossi. Siege Tanks cannot compare, and Vikings can't hold the ground well enough after a Collossus snipe attempt.

I just don't want two units being primary counters to each other.

[arthas]

I put an emphasis on the 'who shoots who first' part because if either party loses their casters, their chances of winning the skirmish plummet.

Feedback is targetted and unavoidable.

You're right about the secondary counters too, which is why Terrans are losing to Protoss so much right now. Even if they get an EMP or two off, they're still melted by Collossi. Siege Tanks cannot compare, and Vikings can't hold the ground well enough after a Collossus snipe attempt.

I just don't want two units being primary counters to each other.

Siege Tanks have to be microwed,But that's extremly tricky,1.You must avoid immortals with shields,2 You must not target the zealots charging your infantry 3, You must not Focus a single unit with ALL of your tanks when trying to micro cuz too much DPS is lost that way....etc..

[milo]

3, You must not Focus a single unit with ALL of your tanks when trying to micro cuz too much DPS is lost that way

Actually, with the new SC2 hitscanning, there is zero DPS lost this way. AI refuses to overkill in this game. Check this thread:

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2823




But we're getting away from the main topic. It may seem like I've got blinders on here but I feel the counters dynamic is essential to the success of an RTS. You cannot have two units, especially those as powerful as Ghosts and High Templar, hard countering each other and have a healthy metagame. I can forsee the current Ghost vs HT as breaking the entire PvT matchup.

[protoswarrior]

Actually range of feedback seems wrong... it maybe says 9, but in game it is much muhc shorter than EMP. In PvT, the 1 counter against emp and it is underpowered as shit to the point that you cant feedbacka ghost before emp even if you had OBS in fron tof ur army nd spotted the Ghost and queued emp on each ghost from every HT...

Imba EMP yes, Imab Feedback... no.