The Protoss Players Thread

[Aldrius]

3 Phoenix is 450/300 + 150/150 for the Stargate. I'd rather get the far more versatile Void Ray.

There's nothing stopping you from doing both. Phoenix are good defense for your Void Rays anyway. (From and Mutalisks/Vikings) If you mix them with some ground forces to deal with hydralisks/marines, it'd be pretty effective I think.

Every other unit in the game can win you the game but at least hitting buildings.

Corruptors can't. (Evolving doesn't count, Brood Lord is a separate unit) But anyway, I don't think this is important... Mutalisks can't really 'end the game' either, unless you have A LOT of them. They take forever to kill a building.

It's not quite comparable to the Phoenix of course, and I understand what you're saying, just... saying, the ability to attack buildings wouldn't make phoenix better.

Alright. Hallucinated Phoenix makes Stalker Blink somewhat viable. That doesn't make Phoenix viable.

The Phoenix is viable anyway and you can use it for spotting. (People use Corsairs for scouting in ZvP in SC1 all the time) I'm just saying, a dual phoenix/stalker harassment would actually be pretty effective.

[DemolitionSquid]

There's nothing stopping you from doing both. Phoenix are good defense for your Void Rays anyway. (From and Mutalisks/Vikings) If you mix them with some ground forces to deal with hydralisks/marines, it'd be pretty effective I think.

Phoenix tickle Mutas and spread their legs for Vikings. The ability to temporarily remove a cheap-as-fuck Hydra or Marine for 10 seconds is NOT enough.

Corruptors can't. (Evolving doesn't count, Brood Lord is a separate unit).

Of course it counts. Don't be like Archer.

But anyway, I don't think this is important... Mutalisks can't really 'end the game' either, unless you have A LOT of them. They take forever to kill a building.

But at least they're not useless against static defenses.

It's not quite comparable to the Phoenix of course, and I understand what you're saying, just... saying, the ability to attack buildings wouldn't make phoenix better.

The ability to lift even just static D would make the Phoenix a hundred times better.

The Phoenix is viable anyway and you can use it for spotting. (People use Corsairs for scouting in ZvP in SC1 all the time) I'm just saying, a dual phoenix/stalker harassment would actually be pretty effective.

Corsairs were everything the Phoenix wishes it could be. I've used Phoenix Stalker. The Phoenix are a waste every time.

[Aldrius]

Phoenix tickle Mutas

...um....

All... right then.... that's not true at all. Unless the Mutalisk has a SIGNIFICANT numbers advantage.

They certainly don't 'tickle' them anyway. They 6-shot them. That's quite a bit of damage.

and spread their legs for Vikings.

This ones a bit muddier than Phoenix vs. Mutalisk, but I'm pretty sure Phoenix win if they get the drop on the Vikings. (i.e. Before they can use their range advantage) They deal about the same DPS to one another, and the Phoenix has significantly higher health and an armor point.

Of course it counts. Don't be like Archer.

It's a separate unit with a separate production time, tech and cost. That's the truth. That's not being like Archer.

But at least they're not useless against static defenses.

I suppose, but then the Mutalisk is accompanied by the Corruptor. The Phoenix is accompanied by the Void Ray. Which is VERY good against static defenses.

Corsairs were everything the Phoenix wishes it could be.

Why? Because it had an AoE attack? That's the ONLY thing it has over the Phoenix. Damage-wise they're about the same otherwise.

I've used Phoenix Stalker. The Phoenix are a waste every time.

Hm. I'm interested in looking into this more I think. What's killing your Phoenix usually?

[DemolitionSquid]

...um....

All... right then.... that's not true at all. Unless the Mutalisk has a SIGNIFICANT numbers advantage.

They certainly don't 'tickle' them anyway. They 6-shot them. That's quite a bit of damage.

When Phoenix are only good vs one unit, I'd call that tickling the Zerg.

This ones a bit muddier than Phoenix vs. Mutalisk, but I'm pretty sure Phoenix win if they get the drop on the Vikings. (i.e. Before they can use their range advantage) They deal about the same DPS to one another, and the Phoenix has significantly higher health and an armor point.

Vikings slaughter Phoenix almost as badly as they do Void Rays. Its gruesome.

It's a separate unit with a separate production time, tech and cost. That's the truth. That's not being like Archer.

Yes, it is. You're ignoring a crucial point to serve your cause: any Corruptor can attack structures once its a Brood lord. The Phoenix will never be able to accomplish a fraction of that.

I suppose, but then the Mutalisk is accompanied by the Corruptor. The Phoenix is accompanied by the Void Ray. Which is VERY good against static defenses.

Muta/Corruptor creams VR/Phoenix. Its not a fair fight to any degree.

Why? Because it had an AoE attack? That's the ONLY thing it has over the Phoenix. Damage-wise they're about the same otherwise.

You underestimate AoE power.

Hm. I'm interested in looking into this more I think. What's killing your Phoenix usually?

Everything. They're worthless.

[Aldrius]

When Phoenix are only good vs one unit, I'd call that tickling the Zerg.

They're okay against corruptors and they're REALLY good for harassment against zerg. Kill the Queen, kill the Overlords, kill drones. It's good against hydralisks when numbers of units are small. They also completely prevent nydus drops by overlord hunting. And they're fast enough to completely outmaneuver Hydralisks.

So okay, yeah, other than that the Phoenix is a one-tricky pony.

Vikings slaughter Phoenix almost as badly as they do Void Rays. Its gruesome.

That doesn't make any sense. How many vikings against how many Phoenix? And how is the fight initiated?

Yes, it is. You're ignoring a crucial point to serve your cause: any Corruptor can attack structures once its a Brood lord. The Phoenix will never be able to accomplish a fraction of that.

ONCE it's a Brood Lord. That costs tech, time and money. Like any other unit.

Muta/Corruptor creams VR/Phoenix. Its not a fair fight to any degree.

I have no clue if this is true or not. Nobody ever goes air against me. The one time I played a player who went air he massed a couple of Void Rays first. I'd gone Mutalisk first. To me, it'd make sense to make ONE void ray and then a bunch of phoenix.

You underestimate AoE power.

I'm not. I'm saying that the Phoenix's damage is fine. They do well against mutalisks and AoE doesn't matter versus anything else. The Corsair absolutely CREAMED the Mutalisk, though. It didn't even stand a chance. I'm assuming they wanted to avoid a unit that was that hard a counter in SC2.

Everything. They're worthless.

How constructive...

[Gradius]

So ever since Terrans have stopped underestimating Marines I've been getting steamrolled. I see pure Marines armies nowadays, and those can come up in minutes. Colossi + storm always seems to be too late. =/

[DemolitionSquid]

So ever since Terrans have stopped underestimating Marines I've been getting steamrolled. I see pure Marines armies nowadays, and those can come up in minutes. Colossi + storm always seems to be too late. =/

Sentries are GOD. Hold em off or trap with FF while you slice them with your Zealots, GS to reduce damage, Hallucination to tank.

They're okay against corruptors and they're REALLY good for harassment against zerg. Kill the Queen, kill the Overlords, kill drones. It's good against hydralisks when numbers of units are small. They also completely prevent nydus drops by overlord hunting. And they're fast enough to completely outmaneuver Hydralisks.

So okay, yeah, other than that the Phoenix is a one-tricky pony.

Maybe you're just not as good a Zerg player as you think if you're getting beat by the Protoss' absolute worst unit.

That doesn't make any sense. How many vikings against how many Phoenix? And how is the fight initiated?

Phoenix
Cost: 150/100
HP: 60/120
Supply: 2
Dmg: 5 (x2) + 5 vs Light
Light - Mechanical

Viking
Cost: 150/75
HP: 125
Supply: 2
Dmg: 10 (x2) + 4 vs Armored
Armored - Mechanical

Given a 1-1 ratio, where the Terran player saves 25 gas:

Phoenix kills Viking in 13 shots.
Viking kills Phoenix in 9 shots.

That's also regardless of range, of which the Viking has more than double (9 - 4) anyway.

ONCE it's a Brood Lord. That costs tech, time and money. Like any other unit.

Except the Phoenix, a dead-end unit.

I have no clue if this is true or not. Nobody ever goes air against me. The one time I played a player who went air he massed a couple of Void Rays first. I'd gone Mutalisk first. To me, it'd make sense to make ONE void ray and then a bunch of phoenix.

A few quick notes I tested:
1 Phoenix beats 1 Muta
1 Corruptor beats 1 Phoenix.
1 Void Ray beats 2 Muta.
1 Void Ray beats 1 Corruptor.

I'm not. I'm saying that the Phoenix's damage is fine. They do well against mutalisks and AoE doesn't matter versus anything else. The Corsair absolutely CREAMED the Mutalisk, though. It didn't even stand a chance. I'm assuming they wanted to avoid a unit that was that hard a counter in SC2.

By making it suck all around? Genius.

How constructive...

I do have a way with words, don't I?

[Aldrius]

Maybe you're just not as good a Zerg player as you think if you're getting beat by the Protoss' absolute worst unit.

I'm not getting beaten by it. Nobody uses it because they think it sucks. I've just seen it used effectively.

Phoenix kills Viking in 13 shots.
Viking kills Phoenix in 9 shots.

Phoenix shoots faster I'm pretty sure. Their DPS is about the same. Did you account for armor as well? (Which applies after the Phoenix's shields are down.)

A few quick notes I tested:
1 Phoenix beats 1 Muta
1 Corruptor beats 1 Phoenix.
1 Void Ray beats 2 Muta.
1 Void Ray beats 1 Corruptor.

Ugh. That void ray buff is going to be an absolute terror to deal with.

By making it suck all around? Genius.

How does it suck all around? It's better than a Mutalisk at air to air, and it's got a built-in phase shift for non-massive ground units. It kills workers faster too and has longer range. And it moves faster. Takes more micro, but if someone can pull it off, I think it's worth it.

The Void Ray is also WAYYYY better than the Corruptor. So it's got a better partner in crime.

[DemolitionSquid]

I tested Viking against Phoenix, Viking wins, as I said.

[tam]

heres a bo that huskystarcraft came up with that i've tried a couple of times and it seems to work rather well (this is copy and pasted from his youtube video, i used this bo a couple of times and it does work rather well if u're right on time and good micro):

9 Pylon
10 Queue up 3 Probes and Chrono Boost their production twice in a row.
13 Gateway
14 1st Vespine Gas
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
18 2nd Vespine Gas
19 Zealot (GET ZEALOT BEFORE CYBERNETICS CORE IF YOUR OPPONENT MIGHT BE AGGRESSIVE)
23 Research Warp Gates
23 Zealot
23ish Pylon
26ish Robotics Facility
27ish Sentry
27ish Chrono Boost Warp Gate research
30 Observer (Chrono Boost ASAP)
31 Gateway
NOTE: Depending on what you want, either get Immortal ASAP or work towards Colossus tech
31ish Immortal right after Observer
36 Make Gateways into Warpgates
36 Immortal
40 Stalker
42 2x Zealot
42 PUSH OPPONENTS BASE

Note: Make 2 more gateways as you push or use your army to secure your natural. Keep your Observer active to spot for burrowed roaches. DO NOT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED. Your push will be slightly stronger and much faster if you don't get supply blocked