The Protoss Players Thread

[Drake Clawfang]

PvZ..........
-Uhhhhhhhh zerg didn't mine for the first 29 game secs.
-Typically make pylons on 9. Makes more sense economically. Especially since you chrono probes a lot.

-Going 10 pylon 11 gate means you're going for an early attack. Otherwise it kinda puts you back a bit economically. Or you could use it to tech really quickly but you didn't take any gases. Standard is like 14 or 15 supply then first gas.

-Standardly it's fine for Protoss to have Zerg hatchery first before pool and for Protoss to take his expo much later. But of course putting on early pressure with a zealot and stalker. Most cases 1 or both units die but it doesn't allow zerg to drone too much

Right, I'll keep these notes in mind for the future. Though I'm not sure how I'm supposed to pressure when I let him fast expo and thus he'll have far more units than me.

-Ummm...no walloff??? You could just wall the choke between your main and the natural leaving a small spot for a zealot.

I typically don't wall off as Protoss, I use Zealots a lot so walling off would only hurt me if I get attacked. The wall-off in the one replay here is really uncommon for me.

Cross map 1 gate zealot on Tal'Darim Altar isn't exactly gonna hit zerg that quick. Plus if you're doing an early attack you'd normally save chronos to chrono units/warp gate or something early attack related.
-The whole opening 6-7mins for you basically messed you up bad. You committed to a 1 gate zealot attack cross map and didn't do enough damage to make it worth how much it set you back. You had a crazily late cyber core. Not walling off at the choke made things worse later on when his lings ran in.

I know, I panicked when I saw the fast expo and went for a rush, it threw me off. I rarely ever do well in PvZ if I can't stop the Zerg from getting a fast expo.

-Plus there's this super annoying thing you can do to a greedy zerg that does that on Tal'Darim. Just the moment you see hatchery before pool....put down a forge. Don't cancel anything building of course but cut a few probes here and there to get the minerals for it. Then cannon rush his natural hatchery. Sometimes even block off the choke between main and natural completely with pylons then cannon from there to the natural hatchery. BUT note...zerg usually after that will try a nydus worm or large attack so don't get too greedy. Take your natural but don't chrono probes too much or try to tech too fast. For this reason some Protosses love to Forge Fast Expand on that map (myself included) because you can cannon rush zerg if he's too greedy.

Only lameass noobs cannon rush. End of story.

-Overall....try looking at more standard play PvZ on Tal'Darim Altar. The map is a bit too large to depend upon non-proxy'd gateways as an early attack. Early pressure sure but not an early attack.

I don't watch other replays.

[Drake Clawfang]

PvT close air positions on Shattered Temple..
-You got a forge at 3.30 to get cannons at 7 minutes. So ya......could just delay that forge. A forge takes 45 game secs to make. So you could put it down at 6.15 and still put down those cannons at 7 minutes.

Right, at the time I made it just because I had the min but a second gate would have been better.

-Opener looked more standard. Except zealot before cyber core. And cyber core late by 30 secs. The core should have been put down at 3 mins not 3:30. You had the money for it and you don't need the zealot that early unless he's doing a super cheese. And while you saw 2 rax it was 1 rax finish then only start the second rax so ya.....didn't really need that zealot that early.

......what?

-You didn't make a gas unit until quite late. If terran did an early attack on you he could have outmicro'd your zealots completely and done a lot of damage to you. Not making any gas units at all for quite some time and taking gases at a normal time led to you having a lot of gas at 7 mins. If you're going sentries then the earlier you make them the better. They can gain energy and free up minerals for building things.

-Your warp gate finished at 7minutes. It could have been at 6:30 or earlier with chronoboost. Your first warp in happened at 9minutes. Ummmmmm....make units....and uhhhh.....if you want to go so zealot heavy maybe only take 1 gas. The whole idea of warping in is to warp in what you can afford to manage your economy. "Oh my gas is high so I warp in sentries now." And if you decide you don't want to warp in sentries at that point in the game think "Ok next game I take my second gas later because I don't want to have to warp in so many sentries."

Right, don't need two gas that early, got it.

-In terms of cannons...you don't need the one behind the mineral line at your main. The other 2 cannons already give detection so you just have good minimap watching and move units to intercept banshees or drops. And you could just use one cannon at the front not two. You were late sending scouts to see his natural and the watchtower. You can just send a probe. It's cheaper than a zealot, faster and can put down pylons in the field.

-You had no idea what units he was making at all. You could have just sacrificed a probe between 6-8minutes by just running up his ramp and watching to see what kills it.

-There's no more Khaydarin Amulet. You should warp in some high templar before storm finishes so they can gather enough energy.

Right.

-When you finally decided to attack......sacrificial zealots first on move command.

Yeah, I have no clue what I was thinking there.

Proxy pylon a bit too close considering he has tanks. You should wait for the pylon to finish and you warp in one more round before attacking. Zealots should lead the charge not stalkers. High Templar require a lot of care so put them on a separate control group. For that matter using some control groups for units isn't a bad idea. Guardian shield before attacking. Feedback high energy medivacs if there's nothing to storm. Then keep the high templar back and not sitting in tank range. And uhhh ya work on macro I guess. You macro'd way better than your opponent but could still be improved.

Yeah I used my HTs badly, I don't use them often. In the final attack I actually forgot the Sentries were even there.

[JackhammerIV]

PvT 2 on Shattered Temple close ground positions....
-Do cyber core before zealot. Like before not much use to get the zealot before cyber core. Technically it can't kill a scouting probe/scv/drone unless the other guy is careless/doesn't have the APM.

-Again with the 10 pylon 11 gateway. With this build you can start your core at 2:40 but you do it at 3:05. That sacrifices the early attack potential and the fast tech potential of a 10 pylon 11 gateway. So ya...either stop doing it or adapt your build to make 10 pylon 11 gateway work.

-Your 2nd, 3rd and 4th gateways are late. You usually time it so they finish when warp gate finishes. You technically could have made them at 5:30. Just delaying second gas. Too fast a pylon to bring you to 32/50 food. And an unnecessary forge. If you run up a probe up his ramp at that 6-7min mark and see what kills it you can decide if you need a forge. If you don't see a lot of bio or tanks then you can be worried about banshees. Especially if you just see a bunker and what seems to be only marines shooting at your probe then worry about banshees.

-Then ya unlucky to not spot the bio coming. But a nice trick is to send out a probe to like the choke at his natural but away from high ground. When the probe dies be prepared for terran to come attack you.

[Drake Clawfang]

PvT 2 on Shattered Temple close ground positions....
-Do cyber core before zealot. Like before not much use to get the zealot before cyber core. Technically it can't kill a scouting probe/scv/drone unless the other guy is careless/doesn't have the APM.

Okay.

-Again with the 10 pylon 11 gateway. With this build you can start your core at 2:40 but you do it at 3:05. That sacrifices the early attack potential and the fast tech potential of a 10 pylon 11 gateway. So ya...either stop doing it or adapt your build to make 10 pylon 11 gateway work.

-Your 2nd, 3rd and 4th gateways are late. You usually time it so they finish when warp gate finishes. You technically could have made them at 5:30. Just delaying second gas.

I don't follow builds, so whatever you just said means nothing to me. I don't time things, unless there's some sort of in-game clock I can turn on I just don't have the ability to mentally time the seconds like that. I can tell you're one of those top pro players, but I'm not, I can't do stuff like that.

EDIT - and then he finds there is. Right then, clock is on, will try and time things now.

If you run up a probe up his ramp at that 6-7min mark and see what kills it you can decide if you need a forge. If you don't see a lot of bio or tanks then you can be worried about banshees. Especially if you just see a bunker and what seems to be only marines shooting at your probe then worry about banshees.

-Then ya unlucky to not spot the bio coming. But a nice trick is to send out a probe to like the choke at his natural but away from high ground. When the probe dies be prepared for terran to come attack you.

Noted.

[JackhammerIV]

Right, I'll keep these notes in mind for the future. Though I'm not sure how I'm supposed to pressure when I let him fast expo and thus he'll have far more units than me.

Think of a fast expo this way...."I am investing money now so I'll be weaker NOW so I can be stronger later." If you just send out a zealot and stalker. Micro them a bit then you force him to make lots of zerglings cos if he doesn't you kill his few lings, kill his queen and kill some drones before possibly retreating and saving both units. By just doing that small poke you stop him from making too many drones. Which means the time he'll get stronger from that fast expo is pushed back later.

I typically don't wall off as Protoss, I use Zealots a lot so walling off would only hurt me if I get attacked. The wall-off in the one replay here is really uncommon for me.

Ok go for it. Totally your style. Eventually you might reach a point where the opponents are good enough to punish no walling off. But it's ok to just not wall off until you have problems because of it.

Only lameass noobs cannon rush. End of story.

Well....every single top protoss......Huk, MC, Naniwa, WhiteRa, etc is more than willing to cannon rush if zerg is being greedy. I think it was WhiteRa's stream or his series in Mr Bitter's "Next Week with the Pros" or something like that. He opened pylon, gateway. He saw zerg doing hatchery before pool on Tal'Darim he said simply "Oh zerg greedy. I make forge. Punish." Proceeds to cannon rush the natural of zerg. Zerg loses the hatchery and just leaves. WhiteRa then says "Zerg cannot hatch first that map. Too greedy. Smart protoss punish." Doing hatch first on Tal'Darim is the equivalent of a boxer walking up to his opponent with no guard at all and taunting the opponent.

I don't watch other replays.

Fair enough. Neither do i. I just watch SC2 tournaments.

[JackhammerIV]

I don't follow builds, so whatever you just said means nothing to me. I don't time things, unless there's some sort of in-game clock I can turn on I just don't have the ability to mentally time the seconds like that. I can tell you're one of those top pro players, but I'm not, I can't do stuff like that.

EDIT - and then he finds there is. Right then, clock is on, will try and time things now.

LOL. I personally got too used to not having the clock. It only came in with a patch few months ago. I rarely use it but if i have rough times in my head i can look over to the clock and be aware of things like....

"Oh crap it's so late and i haven't expanded. My macro later on is gonna suffer."

"I only have this much tech at this time!?!?! Damn......i'm so screwed."

"Hmmmm....this is the time terran would usually attack but he isn't.....time to scout for some craziness like all-ins and super fast expos."

"I usually have warp gate done by 6min 20 secs and it's 7minutes and it's almost complete...shit I messed up bad early on."

[Drake Clawfang]

Tried another game, tried to work in some of the stuff you mentioned - pylon at 9, no double gas that early, probe outside his base, run units into his base to see what he has, etc. Since you mentioned it I tried HTs again, not only for storm but for feedback - once again I sucked at using them. Not only did I not use them well enough in what was basically the game deciding battle, but I went for the Templar Archives without gassing my expo so I couldn't build many that early or even begin researching Storm. I *did* use them in said battle and they weakened the Terrans enough so I could push them back and go on to win, but if I used them better and stormed earlier I could have probably won the battle.

Also dunno why I didn't bring those zealots in my base to the final battle, I remember moving my army up and making the zealots there with intent to trap his army if he attacked and the zealots would keep him out of my base, but he didn't attack so I did and those zealots...yeah.

EDIT - oh, and in that case cannon rush opinion revised - "only noobs cannon rush, unless we're on Tal'darim and the Zerg is fast-expoing". Its just that I've lost and won games with cannon rushes, losing I feel cheated and winning I feel cheap. Not fun on either end.

EDIT x2 - also don't worry, I slapped myself for sending the stalkers in first again and waiting almost 30 seconds to begin Warp Gate research on my cy core

[JackhammerIV]

PvP on Tal'Darim...
-Your opponent was basically crazy. His opening was a total "You mad bro?" moment. You punished him appropriately. You could streamline it more but you said you don't stick to builds too much so ya. Like basically that second gateway should be a cyber core instead. On such a large map you can't hope to rally in more zealots. So you'll typically only have 2-3 zealots to attack with and that's it.

-Your first gas way too early since you did two gateways before cyber core. You pushed back the time you could get gas units (by delaying cyber core) so you should delay getting the gas as well.

-The lack of streamlining of your build means actually that despite your opponent's craziness he actually had a chance to hold off your attack that ended the game. The opponent obviously didn't do the right things to achieve it but yeah you gave him a chance when you didn't need to at all.

-The basic problem or bump would be you delay the cyber core a bit too much. If you did a straight up super fast 2 gateways cutting probes and being super aggressive it's fine but you're not.

Overall from all the replays I would say be more careful with army. Think about when to get gas. If you have a lot of gas saved up consider "Next game i should find a way to use all this gas" or "Next game i'm gonna delay getting my second gas. If still too much gas i'll delay my first gas too." You'll find yourself with a lot more minerals than you're used to giving you more options.

[JackhammerIV]

Tried another game, tried to work in some of the stuff you mentioned - pylon at 9, no double gas that early, probe outside his base, run units into his base to see what he has, etc. Since you mentioned it I tried HTs again, not only for storm but for feedback - once again I sucked at using them. Not only did I not use them well enough in what was basically the game deciding battle, but I went for the Templar Archives without gassing my expo so I couldn't build many that early or even begin researching Storm. I *did* use them in said battle and they weakened the Terrans enough so I could push them back and go on to win, but if I used them better and stormed earlier I could have probably won the battle.

Also dunno why I didn't bring those zealots in my base to the final battle, I remember moving my army up and making the zealots there with intent to trap his army if he attacked and the zealots would keep him out of my base, but he didn't attack so I did and those zealots...yeah.

EDIT - oh, and in that case cannon rush opinion revised - "only noobs cannon rush, unless we're on Tal'darim and the Zerg is fast-expoing". Its just that I've lost and won games with cannon rushes, losing I feel cheated and winning I feel cheap. Not fun on either end.

EDIT x2 - also don't worry, I slapped myself for sending the stalkers in first again and waiting almost 30 seconds to begin Warp Gate research on my cy core

Well good you noticed the warp gate research. And uhhh....your normal build is gateway before gas. No idea why the switcheroo.

And I see you already kinda felt the tons of minerals you suddenly get by not taking that second gas that quick. You went up to 8 gateways on 1 base. That's why I stress the importance of when you wanna take your gases. 8 gateways is a bit much though. If you are quite ok with warping in on time and not getting supply blocked then the max is usually 5-6 gateways on 1 base.

That first attack up his ramp didn't go so great though. Another little nugget of info. Run up 1 zealot and see what he has waiting for you. If you think "Oh crap I don't wanna fight that" then just run away.

I'm not sure you can see it but your macro is so so much better. You get a ton saved up at normal times of course like before and during battles. It happens to us all. But other than that it looked so good. Minerals and gas kept quite low. Fewer worries about too much gas. You're good at making probes. And your army...it's HUGE compared to what you had in a previous replay with a similarish situation. And you're improving at scouting and moving around the map. Like look at your vision vs the opponent's. Terran is basically blind. Keep at it. FOR AIUR!!!!!!!!!

[Drake Clawfang]

Now here's a very curious replay, my opponent was a noob and a moron. It took a lot of effort and some micro on my part but I stopped his stategy and went on to crush his base. To hammer home how noob he is, he lifted off his CC and flew away so I couldn't destroy it. Oh yes, and after the game he pms me "gay" and sets me to ignore.

The strategy itself was risky, but I suppose viable. However he was a total noob about it. Like, if you're gonna do something like that, do it in the upper-right area where I won't fucking see you, dumbass!

EDIT - and a PvZ, fast expo, got completely and utterly crushed.

EDIT x2 - PvT, caught me very off-guard, never faced a Terran who used cloaked Banshees. I didn't make a robo bay fast enough, second I saw it robo bay should have gone up. Otherwise, I think I did okay.