The Protoss Players Thread

[ooZer0]

What were their initial ideas on 15 Nex? This thing is very map specific I think. There are only a few maps that allow for such.

At 5:00 I can get Zeals and stalks a cycle behind compared to a standard toss build but that's it. Econ is then just a tiny better early on, but the pump later is good.

It just doesn't feel comfortable/safe, and I got no idea why this is so. I'm curious to know what the pros are finding out about this.

That's kinda the funny thing about pro or semi-pro level games... everything feels very unsafe and unstable looking. Pretty much every ZvT or ZvP match from the GSL or other high levels of play have the zerg making 2 lings, maybe 4, 2 Queens for the first ~6 minutes of the game if they aren't about to die. I see that a lot in pretty much all zerg match ups (except ZvZ, people seem extra aggressive in that match up), zerg just makes 2 lings, gets a third, then pumps units. Even for Toss players it feels very paper thin and its amazing they get away with it.

I remember a practice match between two members of PRIME a while back. Can't remember who it was exactly, but it was a PvZ. And in that game the Toss made 1 Zealot, 1 Sentry, 2 Cannons and then double expanded! To me, that is the definition of unstable and yet he was able to get away with it because he saw nothing threatening coming from the zerg.

I think that seems to be the key to their success. Making just enough to push back what they are throwing at you right here and now, then nothing more. Just enough to survive, but not enough to feel safe. Perhaps safety is an illusion that we convince ourselves we need to have in order to expand freely. Who knows... my own play is usually 2-3 base play, more or less then that doesn't feel right with my current macro/micro. Maybe we just need to mess around with the idea of just not needing LOTS of units to defend expos, but just enough to make him pull back...

[GnaReffotsirk]

Good point.

[spychi]

its official, I ain't doing anything other than cheese against terrans
fucking piece of crap balance
RAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE i lost 4 games fucking rageeeeeeeeeee

[silencbank]

The riskiest match up for early expansion is probably PvP. But that is the same with all mirror matches. If you sacrifice army for economy in a mirror match and it is spotted you will be behind and could lose very fast.

In PvZ I tend to lean toward the "sentry expand" as it has been come to be called. Where you get a zealot and two sentries with your 3rd sentry building, two more gateways are almost done, your warpgate is almost done because you have been chronoboosting it, you expand about this time about 5 minutes or a little after in. The reason I like this build more than the 15 nexus is because it handles mass ling and the roach aggression builds nicely as well. The forge fe can lose to that new 7roach rush where the build I start with holds it off pretty well. And it held it off on steppes of war no less.

Against terran there are two builds that I expand into with: the 1gate fe and the 2 gate robo into expand. They both hold off two early key timing pushes by terran. The first being the 2 marauder/1 marine or 2 marine/1 marauder push that happens as soon as concussive shell finishes, and the second being when stim finishes. The 1gate fe could lose to fast banshees if you do not get your robo out in time, but you could easily just steal one of their gases and not have to worry about banshees for a bit.

Against toss it is a bit harder to early expand, but it can be safe if you hold off scouting. The maps that I tend to do the same 1 gate fe against toss that I do against terran are maps with large walking distances from my natural to his natural. So any cross spawns on the 4 player maps, or even the "close by air, far by ground" spawns as well such as 12 and 3 o'clock on lost temple. The reason being you need time to get your gateway units up and running before the colossi (usually) come to eat you. If they push out when they have their two colossi with range at about the 12 minute mark (usually) you will have just enough time to build enough gateway units to hold it off if you have been macroing properly. It will be very close, but it is possible to do. Not only will you hold off the first push, but since you can get a bigger army going faster than they can since they spent so much money going for colossi, you can spew a few cycles of units and push for the win, push to expand, or push and tech up for some good turtle busting tech (like voidrays or colossi of your own).

All of the builds that I have talked about I have seen pros do and win with, and I have won with them against good players as well so they do work well. Let me also give you some good ideas on when to expand. If you are pushing to attack because you just got that key unit, or that key upgrade, you can expand. Expanding while pushing makes sure that your new expansion is safe because their army has to stay and defend their base. Key note to this idea though, if they have an army that can hold yours off, you do not have to kill them right then. You have your expansion, they do not, you will be fine and can just win later.

Another good time to expand is when both of your armies clash and you overwhelmingly win the battle, but do not have enough units to win the game right then. Say a terran has just tried to come kill you and you forcefield and he loses 3/4 of his army but you lose half of your army. If you attacked at this point you could lose all of your army and lose the advantage that you had just won. Like Artosis and Day9 say "when you are ahead, get more ahead". (sure Artosis said it first, but if it is just him saying something people tend to not listen so I had to add that Day9 says it too to give it more credibility).

All in all, there is no real perfect time to expand. If you expand early it is risky until a certain point, but you are ahead from that point on. If you just one base you are ahead on army instead of economy. The easiest way to know when it is OK to expand is to find out what the other races can do, how fast they can do it, and how is the best way to hold it off with what you are trying to do. The reason I know of the timings I said is because other people said to themselves "is it ok if I expand now?" and then just tried it and see how it went vs every single thing that the other player COULD be doing. You can either notice their advice and use it to help your game, or do what they did and see if you see any timings for yourself that you can use. Either way, always GL HF.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Thanks there Silencbank.

[TheRabidDeer]

1 gate FE works against every race, even protoss. The only exclusion is when the other toss 4 gate rushes you. There is a relatively small window in which he can hit you and be ahead in numbers, if he misses this number you can vastly outproduce him ridiculously quickly.

[Thumper]

1 gate FE works against every race, even protoss. The only exclusion is when the other toss 4 gate rushes you. There is a relatively small window in which he can hit you and be ahead in numbers, if he misses this number you can vastly outproduce him ridiculously quickly.

It really depends on the map and spawning location

[TheRabidDeer]

It really depends on the map and spawning location

Well, naturally... you wont be able to FE on a map like steppes of war, and doing an FE is risky on blistering. But it is generally OK on most every other map.

[protoswarrior]

Hehehe TRD, you're gonna love this game !

Thanks to TSL_GuineaPig and team TSL, we Protoss now have a solid strategy like in BW to deal with a fast tech-switching zerg. As long as the early defense holds against any speedling or roach pushes, this strategy is VERY powerful. And the power is not just in the tech units of choice, but the actual flexibility of the build to counter anything zerg can throw at you.

I'm not really that good, but playing against a zerg that went almsot every single unit in the book except for infestors or Ultras, this build fared pretty well ! ^_^

Here ya go:

[spychi]

PW that game was poor, no scouting whatsoever, you just sat there, teching like mad, poor macro, too much money banking and no that is not a great thing to do, having no gateway at first is a bad idea
mass zerglings would screw you up, also that Zerg could go just mass muta, with few phoenixes you wouldn't stand a chance, try doing the forge 2nd and go for one gate zealot fe and can exp decline (if Z is expanding)