Assign Queen to Hatchery

[pure.Wasted]

What if the Morphalisk could cliff-...crawl?

It'd be an alternative to getting your units into an enemy base with the Nydus worm for a one-way mission (I'm thinking Banelings). Take longer to produce, with the risk of doing it on the spot, but there'd be no warning. If he didn't scout his base, tough.

[ArcherofAiur]

ArcherofAuir I have 2 questions for you:

1) Do you think that Blizzard should not have included rally mining in SC2?

With the addition of subsequent macro mechanics, yes. Manual mining was not an appropriate task for its role. Its much better to have a two tiered macro system.

2) Would you be against SL being able to be auto cast?

Yes for the same reason MULEs, and Chronoboost shouldnt be autocast. Its doesnt fit the mechanics role.

"If you don't like tedious apm fests that don't actually involve any strategic decision making... then um... play Protoss or Terran!"

Would it be fair to say that if you didnt like micromanaging terran siege tanks in SC1 that Zerg or Protoss might be a better race to try?

So I guess Zerg in addition to lacking a capital ship, a proper cloaked attacker, an aerial spellcaster, AA at tier 1, an ATA attacker that's actually good at killing something other than capital ships. They also have to go without a strategic macro mechanic now? Why exactly is that again?

They do have strategic macro. They have to manage what to turn their larva into.

It does matter if a computer can do it. If a computer can do it, the task is best left to a computer. A computer couldn't handle MULE, a computer couldn't handle chrono-boost (at least not without messing either up for you), so why should the Zerg be the only one with a macro mechanic better left to a computer?

Because the Zerg challenge is a timing challenge. It rewards players who have the best timing.

Again, calling it "challenging" is an insult to actual challenge. It is only challenge in the same way that paying your bills is a challenge: if you don't do it, they shut off your electricity. It's all risk and no thought; it is only difficult because of the risk.

The difficulty is far more than just the risk. In the late game it becomes increasingly more difficult to time SL perfectly.

failing means auto-lose

This is wrong. Failing to do Spawn Larva does not mean autolose. It depends entirely on what else you are doing and what the opponent is doing.

The kind a computer could do. And thus the kind a computer should do. If being able to do something a computer is perfectly capable of doing impresses you, then there's nothing more that can be said. I stopped being impressed by someone doing idiotic, braindead tasks when I was 5.

To answer your question, High level players who can consistantly manage Spawn Larva throughout the game are incredibly impressive.

And no just because a computer can do a video game task does not mean that a computer should do that task.

[TWD]

Because the Zerg challenge is a timing challenge. It rewards players who have the best timing.

The difficulty is far more than just the risk. In the late game it becomes increasingly more difficult to time SL perfectly.

This is wrong. Failing to do Spawn Larva does not mean autolose. It depends entirely on what else you are doing and what the opponent is doing.

To answer your question, High level players who can consistantly manage Spawn Larva throughout the game are incredibly impressive..

This is where I feel that your argument starts to fall apart. You still believe that this is a difficult challenge that will help to separate players. That this is something even the highest level players will have difficulty with. I am saying otherwise. Within a year everyone that is even remotely serious about playing this game will be nearly perfect at this skill. Professional players will never miss a spawn larvae opportunity. It's just too important to the Zerg game, and it's too easy to pull off consistently. The only ones that won't be doing it are complete n00bs that have no clue everyone else is timing it. In fact, the funny thing is you don't even have to do it every time. Assuming you have a queen for every hatchery, you simply can't accumulate resources fast enough to use them all.

Every time I've played a game with some sort of timing mechanic it's been a problem. Just look at first person shooter games and the whole timing powerups thing. When I played the Unreal Tournament games competitively we had an extra person in teamspeak with us just to time the powerups and notify us. You literally had to because the powerups were that helpful. It became a contentious issue because many thought it was cheating, but there was nothing you could do to stop it. The only solution was to make it so easy to time that everyone could do it and have a chance. That's why most of these games now have a clock built right in to the hud.
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Live sex

[MattII]

Er... and what are the Morphalisks using to transport around? They can't exactly fly and are pretty much limited to creep. Therefore you need to use Overlord transport or Nydus Worms, in which case you might as well just morph them there.

You can get 8 morphalisks in an OL, yet any units produced by those Morphalisks will fill 2+ OLs (16 Zerglings, 8 Hyrdas/Roaches, 8 Ultras, etc.), or will morph to air units, which don't need OLs.

Yeah, the key thing being the supply-limit I believe. It'd kinda regress back into just being spawn larvae as the game progresses. But all three macro mechanics kind of do that anyway.

Unfortunately, so, but that's because the current mechanics are one-sided abilities that you simply use as often as possible, rather than actually involving some sort of decision making.

Outside of the 50-second spawn time I'm pretty sure it was instantaneous. The spawn larvae took time, but the actual unit morphing was very quick. I believe anyway. I don't know for sure.

Oh, well I never looked too deeply into the ability, only what was up on the wikia.

[ArcherofAiur]

This is where I feel that your argument starts to fall apart. You still believe that this is a difficult challenge that will help to separate players. That this is something even the highest level players will have difficulty with. I am saying otherwise. Within a year everyone that is even remotely serious about playing this game will be nearly perfect at this skill. Professional players will never miss a spawn larvae opportunity. It's just too important to the Zerg game, and it's too easy to pull off consistently. The only ones that won't be doing it are complete n00bs that have no clue everyone else is timing it. In fact, the funny thing is you don't even have to do it every time. Assuming you have a queen for every hatchery, you simply can't accumulate resources fast enough to use them all.

Im going off professional FPVODs of SC1 that show that even the best players dont do perfect manual mining the entire time. Furthermore the FPVODs of SC2 zerg players that I have watched show that even they dont do SL perfectly. You can speculate that maybe theyll do it perfectly after theyve had enough practice but thats still just pure speculation with no supporting evidence.


Going back to the issue of whether there is tension in the queens abilities I dont think that can safely be said yet. I for one am seeing allot more use of creep tumors than at the begining of beta. Take this game for instance where a early creep tumor was instrumental in zerg winning.

http://www.youtube.com/user/BlizShou.../3/8jNBf8loTbY

[Aldrius]

Yes for the same reason MULEs, and Chronoboost shouldnt be autocast. Its doesnt fit the mechanics role.

Except MULE and Chrono Boost COULDN'T be auto-cast. How would that even work?

Spawn larvae, though? Easily could be autocast.

Would it be fair to say that if you didnt like micromanaging terran siege tanks in SC1 that Zerg or Protoss might be a better race to try?

That's... even more ridiculous. So Zerg are now DEFINED by this spell? The same way tank micro defined Terran in SC1? I mean tank micro is almost the quintessential idea for Terrans. Positioning, long range firepower, two types of attacks. Can be used for defense or offense very well.

You want to compare Spawn Larvae to THAT?

They do have strategic macro. They have to manage what to turn their larva into.

Maybe, but the spell itself isn't strategic at all. And I really wanted to like the Queen.

Because the Zerg challenge is a timing challenge. It rewards players who have the best timing.

That's not a pretty menial difference of timing. Either you get it right away, or you don't. It's not like a timing ATTACK where you have a multitude of different factors to consider. And attacking too soon can be just as bad as attacking too late. It's just 'hit it 45 seconds on the dot after you cast it last'. You can't hit it too soon, and if you hit it too late, you're not playing as well as you could or should be.

If you miss it, you're doing it wrong. It might not cost you the game, but you're doing it worse than your opponent. Even if the Orbital Command ONLY had MULES, you wouldn't be punished as much because it stockpiles energy. If you cast it two seconds later than your opponent, he'll get those minerals sooner, but you'll be able to cast it again at the exact same time. In the end it won't make much of a noticeable difference.

And no just because a computer can do a video game task does not mean that a computer should do that task.

Maybe not, but it's certainly very discouraging when playing a game. I mean just LOOK at how objectively simple and easy spawn larvae is. There's nothing to it. It's a distraction from playing the game, as some sort of weird APM buffer. Personally I'd prefer something more challenging.

And right now, I think that the supply-using mutant larvae is that. I don't like making the Queen into a Hatchery add-on... I mean it's already barely a unit as it is. So to me, spawn larvae should have a downside. And if the units cost that supply for 45 seconds, then that's a downside you need to consider when you cast the spell.

I mean that might be too drastic, though. 4 useless supply with each hatchery for 45 seconds... I dunno.

[ArcherofAiur]

Except MULE and Chrono Boost COULDN'T be auto-cast. How would that even work?

Spawn larvae, though? Easily could be autocast.

MULE and Chronoboost could be autocast so they continually cast on the same location. But there not. Why? Because that would go against the role of the mechanic.

That's... even more ridiculous. So Zerg are now DEFINED by this spell? The same way tank micro defined Terran in SC1? I mean tank micro is almost the quintessential idea for Terrans. Positioning, long range firepower, two types of attacks. Can be used for defense or offense very well.

You want to compare Spawn Larvae to THAT?

Maintaining maximal larva generation seems like a pretty appropriate task for the zerg. Fits with their racial themes and playstyles.

Maybe, but the spell itself isn't strategic at all.

The spell doesnt need to be strategic. It needs to add strategy to the game.

[Aldrius]

MULE and Chronoboost could be autocast so they continually cast on the same location. But there not. Why? Because that would go against the role of the mechanic.

No they couldn't. That's not how auto-cast works. Auto-cast needs criteria. MULE potentially COULD be auto-cast. (Have energy, cast MULE on the nearest mineral patch) But there's NO WAY it'd work for Chrono Boost.

Maintaining maximal larva generation seems like a pretty appropriate task for the zerg. Fits with their racial themes and playstyles.

Maintaining. So not generating, but maintaining.

It might fit their racial theme, but playstyle? How exactly? Zerg are about overwhelming the opponent, not going back to your base every 45 seconds to get more larvae. And even then, it's not nearly as interesting, meaningful or evocative as tank micro is of the Terran race.

Honestly, I'm still flabbergasted that you're saying spawn larvae is the essential component of SC2 Zerg. I mean are Zerg really THAT boring in StarCraft 2?

The spell doesnt need to be strategic. It needs to add strategy to the game.

The two are one in the same. Larvae already provide strategy in letting you choose what units you're going to build. Spawn larvae is just like having an extra hatchery except you have to click an extra button 45 seconds in advance to get the optimal number of larvae.

[TWD]

Im going off professional FPVODs of SC1 that show that even the best players dont do perfect manual mining the entire time. Furthermore the FPVODs of SC2 zerg players that I have watched show that even they dont do SL perfectly. You can speculate that maybe theyll do it perfectly after theyve had enough practice but thats still just pure speculation with no supporting evidence.

This is simply because none of them have even thought to try it yet. As soon as everyone realizes how easy and effective it is this will change. Historical precedent is almost completely on my side. If it's reasonably possible and provides a clear advantage it will get abused to death. All it takes is one day of using the method and you'll see how possible it really is.
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Nexium side effect

[ArcherofAiur]

This is simply because none of them have even thought to try it yet. As soon as everyone realizes how easy and effective it is this will change. Historical precedent is almost completely on my side. If it's reasonably possible and provides a clear advantage it will get abused to death. All it takes is one day of using the method and you'll see how possible it really is.

And when you provide a FPVOD showing a pro player doing it perfectly ill believe you...