The Terran players thread

[sandwich_bird]

Ugh. I'm having so much trouble with Zerg, I'm losing my mind. I don't know what it is but ever since they realized they have units other than Roaches, I can't seem to do a thing right against them. I'm getting steamrolled by banelings, I'm getting steamrolled by Mutalisks, I'm getting steamrolled by Ultralisks now of all things. This is driving me crazy.

I hear you, I can't beat them anymore. Yesterday I lost in all my TvZ matches except one and in this particular one the guy went straight roaches. I don't know what to do anymore. It's like, you never have enough to go out and face them. Even if you destroy some of their force, they just replace the army they just lost in seconds. They can expand super easily too. They get COMPLETE map control in seconds. I don't think it's just me not playing right anymore, I think there really is a balance problem there.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this game.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZY2QXL1J

One thing I've heard that could have improved this game is that I should've had two Barracks instead of Depots... but, first of all, with the impossibility of scouting Banelings early, am I supposed to just wall off with double Rax against all Zerg now? Because that's pretty ridiculous. And secondly, with how many Banelings he had (went through rows of Depots) I don't think he'd have had that much trouble busting down a Rax. That would have just left even more room for him to maneuver.

- You should go for your rax at 12, not 11. It makes a difference, a small one but still one.
- I always block with rax or factories now. From my experience, double depot line doesn't work well and big buildings block works better against those banelings.
- Your ramp block should be one rax in the middle and 2 depot beside it (if you're going with the smaller block). The reason is, it give less space to be on top of the ramp for the attacker (and so as soon as you destroy the first line they lose vision faster).
- I saw that your reaper was idle for a while. The more you wait with it, the less it is effective.
- You had too much marauders. Zerglings are a counter to marauders so no surprise there. If you see that he doesn't tech switch, you should tech switch yourself to hellions/marauders (marauders are there in case he decide to tech switch quickly to roaches, a counter to your hellions). Of course, this get destroyed when the muta are out so really I don't know what Terrans can really do but whatever. Massing marauders is not the solution anymore since zerg players finally realized that mass roach is not that effective against marauders...
-You shouldn't take all your scv out to repair when the banelings come. At this point, you lost like 7 workers in that first push. That really put you behind.

[mikill]

I hear you, I can't beat them anymore. Yesterday I lost in all my TvZ matches except one and in this particular one the guy went straight roaches. I don't know what to do anymore. It's like, you never have enough to go out and face them. Even if you destroy some of their force, they just replace the army they just lost in seconds. They can expand super easily too. They get COMPLETE map control in seconds. I don't think it's just me not playing right anymore, I think there really is a balance problem there.

What happened? What did they do?

[sandwich_bird]

What happened? What did they do?

They just don't go roaches in the beginning anymore. They almost always FE, which give them a big economic advantage. You can't really stop them from doing so. You can't really expand yourself either. The best you can do is leave one scv at the natural so that they don't expand without at least having the lings out and go fast hellions to try to get some drones (which fails most of the time because of queens/crawlers/and even zerglings (with speed)). Something is wrong if you can't punish them from taking an early expo. I mean, by the time they get their expo ready and running, I should have an army strong enough to punish them right? But no! You can't have enough forces.

It's even worst in blistering sand where they always destroy the rocks to your main and you can't do anything about it because you don't have the range to attack the units destroying it (rock is too large).

[pure.Wasted]

I hear you, I can't beat them anymore. Yesterday I lost in all my TvZ matches except one and in this particular one the guy went straight roaches. I don't know what to do anymore. It's like, you never have enough to go out and face them. Even if you destroy some of their force, they just replace the army they just lost in seconds. They can expand super easily too. They get COMPLETE map control in seconds. I don't think it's just me not playing right anymore, I think there really is a balance problem there.

I was just saying the exact same stuff to Aldrius last night! Map control... they have complete map control, and that's key. From the start when they FE and, as you said, we can't FE ourselves AND we can't stop theirs, and then you just have suddenly this mass of super fast units that can be all over the map in seconds, replaced in seconds, doing whatever they want. Every time I expand vs. Z now, I feel like I'm taking a huge risk. But if I don't, I can't hope to keep up with his unit production. It's lose-lose.

- You should go for your rax at 12, not 11. It makes a difference, a small one but still one.

I'll look into that, thanks.

- I always block with rax or factories now. From my experience, double depot line doesn't work well and big buildings block works better against those banelings.

So what I'm supposed to block with two Rax versus every single Zerg now? Just because he MIGHT go Banelings? That's pretty ridiculous. Anyway, with the amount of Banelings he had, I'm really not so sure that would have made any difference. I think he would have blown through my Rax.

- I saw that your reaper was idle for a while. The more you wait with it, the less it is effective.

I was hoping to try a Reaper harass, but the moment I saw Banelings I knew that wasn't going to work, so I just gave up on it.

You had too much marauders. Zerglings are a counter to marauders so no surprise there. If you see that he doesn't tech switch, you should tech switch yourself to hellions/marauders (marauders are there in case he decide to tech switch quickly to roaches, a counter to your hellions). Of course, this get destroyed when the muta are out so really I don't know what Terrans can really do but whatever. Massing marauders is not the solution anymore since zerg players finally realized that mass roach is not that effective against marauders...

OK, but Marauders with slow (which I got) are the counters to the mass of Banelings he had. If I got mass Marines, his Ling/Bling army would have made even shorter work of them. And I really didn't feel safe getting Hellions considering how much time that would take, since I knew a battle was coming any second once my SCV blew up. Although after some success vs. Aldrius's build last night I'm definitely going to be trying for more Fac-oriented BOs vs Zerg, it still feels very risky, because I'm waiting to tech to start getting my army, but teching doesn't set him back at all (10 units produced at the same time with SL and FE).

-You shouldn't take all your scv out to repair when the banelings come. At this point, you lost like 7 workers in that first push. That really put you behind.

Yeah, heh, that was a pretty obvious blunder. I was hoping they could repair the Depots fast enough to keep the Banelings from getting through, but no dice. Then I hoped they would get in the Banelings way (to Marauders), but the Banelings just blew up on them instead. -.- I mean, I won't make that mistake again, but the thing is I was losing immediately, as opposed to 5 minutes from then, so the lack of economy wasn't really a factor.

The only real fuck up I can see is that with the tiniest bit of micro, I'm pretty sure I could have had his expo. But he expoed pretty late (the only reason I might have gotten it) and the window of opportunity was so tiny it just doesn't seem reasonable for the MU to be balanced around it. That's a screw up on my part, but I don't think it's fair for that to cost someone the game; most Zerg won't even give you the opportunity to screw up like that.

[Aldrius]

Although after some success vs. Aldrius's build last night I'm definitely going to be trying for more Fac-oriented BOs vs Zerg

"Aldrius' build" is basically "I can't straight-tech to Hydras and go Hydraling anymore... let's try everything else under the sun." =S

So I'd hardly call it a 'build'.

, it still feels very risky, because I'm waiting to tech to start getting my army, but teching doesn't set him back at all (10 units produced at the same time with SL and FE).

Uh... of course teching sets me back. It's not like I have infinite resources. I can only spawn so many drones at a time.

Half the reason I lost that game was because I went in like 5 separate tech directions.

I have to wonder how a race can get heavily nerfed and you two can get WORSE against it, though. o_0 That's very peculiar.

[pure.Wasted]

Uh... of course teching sets me back. It's not like I have infinite resources. I can only spawn so many drones at a time.

I wasn't talking about you at this point. I was talking about Zerg in general. Teching doesn't set them back as much because they can get instant results the moment their tech building is finished. Whereas for me, a Factory is an investment that I'm not sure will pay off given that I might be Busted any second now.

I have to wonder how a race can get heavily nerfed and you two can get WORSE against it, though. o_0 That's very peculiar.

You know how I was telling you it's really easy to kill all those Banshee-happy Terrans right now? Imagine Blizz nerfed Banshees to hell and back. Suddenly playing TvT would become really difficult because they'd start doing all these other things the race could do all along, but they never bothered to.

Substitute Roach for Banshee.

[sandwich_bird]

So what I'm supposed to block with two Rax versus every single Zerg now? Just because he MIGHT go Banelings? That's pretty ridiculous. Anyway, with the amount of Banelings he had, I'm really not so sure that would have made any difference. I think he would have blown through my Rax.

Yeah I know, I'm not a fan of it myself and I find it ridiculous too but we don't really have a choice anymore. Banelings will break in with only depots. What's interesting to see as well is that just the fact that you don't block with depots makes a lot of zerg not go banelings.

[GRUNT]

I know it made ME stop going Banelings...usually . I'm also interested how the metagame changed so quickly...at least for me ^_^.

I was never a big fan of the Baneling bust to begin with, though. I wanted to be able to beat Terrans via 'standard' play, and that's how I arrived to the style I'm using at the moment .

Let me just give you guys some heads-up as a Zerg player . Don't be too intimidated by a fast expand. If you watch the games you lose, I'm sure you'll see that for a fair amount of time, you're both resourcing the same even though he may have an expansion up sooner. It does take a while for that economic bonus to kick in.

If you see a Zerg fast expand, odds are, they won't have the means to pressure you, so you might want to consider expanding, yourselves.

Also, keep in mind that the Zerg need that extra income to be able to compete with the other races. I know some people think that Zerg can fight effectively on an equal number of bases, but I personally don't feel that's true. More often than not, even in games which I win, when I look at the 'Units Lost' tab, I often lose more resources' worth of units than my opponent.

I think that there's a pendulum of momentum in a matchup against a fast-expanding Zerg. Generally, early in the game, the Terran can put pressure, and the Zerg needs to defend. Those of you who've played with me on Kulas ravine may notice that I almost always put down a couple of Spines, and break my rocks. This is because I've become paranoid after several tank drops, Hellion runbys, and Reaper harass.

However, if I can fend off the initial harassment without incurring too much economic damage, I'll come out ahead. Zerg infantry kicks ass. Unfortunately for Zerg (but fortunately for everyone else), the pendulum swings in the non-Zerg's favour once AoE enters the field. Siege Tanks, Colossi, and Psi Storm are all pains in the butt. They basically make it very difficult for Zerg to engage in a straight-up fight until they get higher tech (it's possible for a while, but becomes harder the more AoE the enemy gets). This is a VERY good time to attack a Zerg .

At equal supply, I feel that like in BW, the non-Zerg has an advantage. EG - 120/200 Terran vs 120/200 Zerg - the Terran should come out ahead (at least, if we're in the midgame and there's tanks). Zerg can replace their troops pretty fast, but I personally feel that in an even fight, the Zerg player should lose a lot more supply's worth of units, even if they win.

That's basically where the balance lies, and it was that way in BW as well. Terran and Protoss armies are harder to replace, but you lose less units in a fight. In a 200/200 fight if you lose as much supply worth of units as the Zerg player, then get outproduced by the Zerg, then that probably means that you were behind in the first place.

I don't claim to be a good Zerg player, but this is just my impression . I very rarely win if the game drags on to tier 3 tech on both sides. It might also partly be because my macro isn't that strong. I just don't have enough larvae or resources to replace my army fast enough after it gets melted with minimal casualties from the enemy side. They steamroll my main and all my hatcheries before I can muster up a large enough army to stop them.

Early-midgame Marauders and Marines. Against Terrans, this has a habit of really getting me . I also dread M&Ms supported by tanks. It's an extremely hard nut to crack.

[Islandsnake]

You could also build a 2 stage wallin, put a bunker at the bottom of your ramp and add another building to complete the wall in that way he either waste he banelings on the bunker or first layer supply and then cant break the main wall.

Anyway with terran I usally open hellion harras, it almost forces them to get roaches to block the ramp as lings wont do well enough to block the ramp, followed up by either a quick banshee OR a viking medviac harras with a hellion drop and a viking to snipe ovys.

If you thor drop there natural cliff its almost impossible for them to stop it, thors one shot hydras and shoot overlords and can be repaired alll while on the high ground in range of there hatchery.

Turrets are really good vs muta so you can throw those out if you dont have a scouting info.

Honestly I think with terran you need to keep them on the back foot early game with harrasment while u secure your natrual expo - and then in the mid game try to prevent them from getting a third base, since its hard to defend all 3 bases from hellions. And then when you have a few tanks maybe a thor or so and a decent MnM force with medviac support move out.


Small Note: You NEED to know if hes getting broorlords they are horribly powerful units that you can beat but if you don't see them coming your going to die instantly. Get vikings if you see them coming infact get vikings if you see a hive coming at all since thats what hes making if he gose hive ( if he makes ultras you already have htors and marauders anyway)

[imdrunkontea]

I've been steamrolled over and over again lately in TvP...any tips? I've tried banshee harass, reaper harass, and of course MMM+ghost. it seems like if the protoss player knows what he's doing, he can just attack move and roll over my forces, even with multiple emps and stim.

I personally feel immortals are just too strong vs terran...they wipe out marauders/tanks/hellions in seconds, yet their counter, the marine, is in turn hard countered by zealots, sentries, colossi and HTs. I also always feel behind in economy, as I have trouble defending my expos, and I feel like my chances of winning the game go down the more and more we get into high tiers thanks to colossi and motherships.

So yeah...any tips would help