I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[Gifted]

DemoSquid, I'm not going to pressure you like the rest, but if in the next day or two you try some strategy against this and find you lose, toss the replay here or to me personally if you want via PM and I'll be happy to give non-judgemental thoughts regarding it and discuss it with ya

Guys, lighten up on the guy.

[Norfindel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CRf7Ofc-6U at the 6th minute sentry/stalker/immortal vs mutaroach show down.

That was very impressive. Even if the Sentry has kind of low HP for a Protoss unit, it's attack seems to be very powerfull. Incredible how Mutas have to run away from them.
About what happends at the end of the game:

Hidden Content:

All those Force Fields and Guardian Shields just won the game completely. Had the Zerg army been able to close in, i think it would been completely different.
The Zerg player could had withdrawn it's forces, however. Then the Protoss player would had to wait for it's own FFs to dissipate to attack.

What about trying Zealot (few) + Sentry + Immortal vs Mutaroach? Is that possible?

[newcomplex]

Lol.



Bigger lol.

Name another tier 2 unit that "doesn't have or need a cost-efficient counter."



Barracks (60) > Factory (80) > Starport (50) > Banshee (60) = 240

SPool (60) > Lair (80) > Spire (100) > Mutalisk (33) = 263

Should Protoss also not have hard counters against Banshees? Just curious.

Name another tier 2 unit that "doesn't have or need a cost-efficient counter."

If you want to be technical, technically, Mutalisks are hard countered by phoenixes which do +15 damage versus light, 4 times its normal damage. As a result, it is an extremely hard counter to mutalisks if you match 50% of mutalisks production in pheonixes. In reality, they do not hardcounter mutalisks because of production differences. Protoss cannot match the production of mutalisks with pheonixes until late game.

What are the zerg counters against archons besides the fact that they cost a whopping 300/250 gas? What can zerg do to counter mass ravens? The answer to both is nothing, their are other factors that need to be explored to soft counter them.

Your Banshee analogy is incredibly stupid because banshees don't attack air units, and fulfill a different niche then mutalisks. They are literally countered by any unit that attacks air in general. In order for them not to have a hard counter would mean they would mean that the toss simply lacks a GtA unit.

What you people are asking for is a instant counter to mutalisks on the same tech as mutalisks. You might as well ask for collosus on tier 1 to counter marines.

12 mutalisks require 1200 gas+300 gas from tech. Yes, their is no "hard counter" for them really. I can however, get pheonixes, but they are a late game counter do to the amount of starports needed. At least 2, best 3, in order to make them at a reasonable speed.

The real question is why do zerg have 1500 gas? The answer is you have been sitting for the entirety of early game twiddling your thumbs, while the zerg have 2 saturated bases. Then, when the zerg show up with a bajillion mutalisks, you want to be able to counter by building like, five units from a gateway or something.

Gas for Gas, Stalkers beat mutalisks, sentries beat mutalisks, pretty much anything the protoss have beat mutalisks. The issue isn't mutalisks, its the fact that you have simply not done anything while the zerg get a far better economy then you.


I already outlined this in that post. I already stated how technically pheonixes counter mutas, but take too long to produce. Please actually read it next time.




When people try to make it look like Protoss are helpless, they make so many completely invalid logical judgements its laughable. For one, they ignore the fact that the zerg have 2 bases. They also ignore the fact that Spires take 100 seconds to build, among the longest in the game. When discussion aggression, they ignore the fact that switching from roaches to zerglings cannot be done instantaneously.

If a protoss loses to early game mutalisks, they have already made so many mistakes that if they don't lose, the game would be heavily imbalanced in their favor. Double gas income one of them.

[SoFool]

That's the exact replay i was talking 3 pages ago...

I'm just showing the video link.

I posted that Link 2-3 Pages ago.

Sry didn't notice ><

This match is made of fail. Everything the Zerg player did was stupidity of the highest order.

1: He didn't have enough Drones. Spending a single SL cycle on Drones would easily have doubled his mineral flux. Clearly, this is a SC1 Zerg player.

2: He didn't get Zerglings. He clearly saw Stalker+Sentry. And he kept building Mutalisks, not the Drones+Zerglings he needed.

3: His macro was crap. And when I'm talking down to your macro, seek help. You should never have that much larva just lying around. Even when you're waiting for your Spire.

4: He expanded to corn, but didn't even bother to do anything with it. I've done something like this on occasion (expanding without building), but I'm an upper-mid level Silver player.

5: At the end, when the Protoss did his big mass-forcefield, the Zerg should have backed off. Pull back; the force fields blocked the Protoss's advance just as much as the Zerg's. Back off and wait, then attack. But no, he threw away his Mutalisks for nothing.

As a zerg player myself I was also quite disappointed in his playstyle, I have an impression that he was really super duper confident of his mutaroach army but he got owned & he left the game without saying gg (even an AI has more manners than him). And there was one time when the protoss force was out of position, his mutas could have destroyed his eco really bad but he hesitated & flew away instead ==

[RamiZ]

What about trying Zealot (few) + Sentry + Immortal vs Mutaroach? Is that possible?

If you don't have a good amount of Sentries, then no, it isn't possible. In Sentries/Stalkers, Sentries are support for FF and GS and also for damage, but Stalkers are the ones that do the most damage, since you are not exactly massing the Sentries. And he will probably have more Mutas than you Sentries so he will win anyway.

And about that replay, yes FF and GS won the game(Sentries actually but w/e xD), but Zerg outmassed him hard, he should won if he use just a little micro, he just needed to retreat and wait those FF to disappear, but he wanted to fight, and cause of Roache's range, it was Mutas vs. Stalkers and Sentries, without Roaches, so fight was won easily by Protoss. Zerg was just stupid enough not to retreat...

[Norfindel]

If you don't have a good amount of Sentries, then no, it isn't possible. In Sentries/Stalkers, Sentries are support for FF and GS and also for damage, but Stalkers are the ones that do the most damage, since you are not exactly massing the Sentries. And he will probably have more Mutas than you Sentries so he will win anyway.

And about that replay, yes FF and GS won the game(Sentries actually but w/e xD), but Zerg outmassed him hard, he should won if he use just a little micro, he just needed to retreat and wait those FF to disappear, but he wanted to fight, and cause of Roache's range, it was Mutas vs. Stalkers and Sentries, without Roaches, so fight was won easily by Protoss. Zerg was just stupid enough not to retreat...

Ok, that makes sense.
Muta+Roach is cheaper than Stalker+Immortal. Is the Immortal as powerful as to balance that battle for cost, or you need to outmacro the Zerg player?

[GRUNT]

DemoSquid, I'm not going to pressure you like the rest, but if in the next day or two you try some strategy against this and find you lose, toss the replay here or to me personally if you want via PM and I'll be happy to give non-judgemental thoughts regarding it and discuss it with ya

Guys, lighten up on the guy.

Just for the record, some time ago, I also PMed demosquid as well, and I assure you that it was the most friendly advice-giving PM you could ask for.

Whether or not the advice I gave was useful for him, the first thing Demosquid said in his reply was "you might want to get your head checked", which I don't think is cool when someone's trying to help you.

La la la lala.

[TerroR]

Let's not even get into the game where I made 24 fake stalkers, and as they ran into the base the guy GG'd before even engaging them. That was priceless.

LOL!!!

[Arkalis]

Gifted, can you post a link to that famous 24-fakestalkers-gg video? Or didn't recorded? Would be a shame

[Alterran]

Its rather wierds, but sentries + zealots in the start is the perfect choice for me when im playing gold lvl, u meet ppl from platinum also at that lvl.

If the zerg takes a xp, i take a xp, i always build a forge after 3 gates + cybernetics while im building some sentries(cheap in minerals), and since u got lots of sentries, all u need are 2 cannons in ur main at the minerals to protect you from like 5~ ish mutas, but you should really push when its been like 9 min or u might get steamrolled by some funky stuffs.
A nice bonus to have is the abundance FF, makes speedlings and roaches cry. Sentries are just brutal vs zerglings and roaches if you got a decent amount.

Something to remember is that if u notice hes advancing on u, you can chrono boost ur warpgates and u will have time to make 6 units before he reaches u with roaches.

Obv you will need a probe or zealot at a watchtower all the time, if its somehow not possible to have, u need a observer if hes left u alone too long.

You might skip the cannons in ur main and go for like 2x in ur xp choke if you feel the player is not going to take a sneaky way out of ur sight.

I have a game here on my strategy taken like 1h ago, he isnt using roaches, he goes muta, and hes kinda bad, but u get the idea.
This works for me, but im not a high lvl player