I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[DemolitionSquid]

You know, I'm normally against bringing back old SC1 units, but I would gladly scrap the Phoenix and bring back the cheap, quick Corsair right now.

[imdrunkontea]

the whole ZvP matchup is kind of messed up right now. if you bring back the corsair, or make an easy way for protoss to deal with air, then they really have nothing. hydras get killed by colossi/speedlots, lings get raped by lots as well, banelings arent very cost effective vs protoss...

it's kind of the same thing with EMP and tvp. with it, the match is sort of one-sided; without it, p has a huge advantage.

[Gradius]

DS - why don't you post a replay so that we can give you actual advice instead of just saying "you're only losing because PvZ is unbalanced".

[RamiZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BidpQEISek Look at this video if you didn't already. I think it shows something vs. Muta/Roaches, but also I can't tell you is it really that effective counter when Zerg made a lot of mistakes.

[Gifted]

There are a few options that I use to handle this. It's part of my typical build, I'm under the assumption that it's 1v1.

- Build 1 zealot and go right into sentry. While you say "it's 100 gas a pop" it's also "50 minerals a pop". I typically do a 3 gate build against zerg. Here's how my macro mentality happens:

If I have 100 gas, I build 2 stalkers and a zealot.
If I have 150 gas, I go sentry/stalker/zealot
If I have 200 gas, I go sentry/stalker/stalker or sentry/sentry/zealot. (depends on my current mix)

The majority of the time I have 200 gas as I don't really tech higher until after the initial roach push. See my notes below regarding macro per 42 time units.

You WILL have enough minerals because sentries are VERY mineral light. The idea is that the gas helps you decide at the moment what to build. Make at least 2 units that involve the best use of your gas, then use the remaining one for a zealot. When you get 5-6 sentries. Depending on their build, if they do the PURE roach, I don't even build extra zealots and just pump stalker/sentry. The reason is, pushing them back with force fields actually screws the zealots, so they're wasted minerals. I'd rather use the minerals to get early prep for mutas.

As you go heavy sentry, you use less minerals. This allows you to easily pump your probes without worry. Goto full saturation off the bat and don't oversaturate against a zerg. It won't be hard to do as you'll be using less minerals initially with your sentries. This will allow you to do a few things.

If they do double expansion, use the extra minerals to counter expand and get 2 pylons/4 cannons in both bases to hold the mutas at bay until you get there with your stalker/sentry heavy army. That or counter depending on how you do. If you want something to soak damage, like zealots, just research hallucination and before you run in, click CSCSCSCS and boom, 8 fake stalkers to take the hits. (I typically have 6-7 sentries against zerg.) Guardian shield and smart force fields will come with practice, but if you don't have zealots, you'll find them WAY more efficient than they used to be.

Also, upgrade armor first, it benefits guardian shield very well.
Even if you stick with 1 base builds... You can easily make the right army.

The build time of a stalker or sentry or immortal is 42 time units. In 42 time units on an efficiently saturated base (16min, 6gas) you get between 200 and 205 gas and 620-625 minerals. That's enough to go 1 immortal/2stalker/1pylon every 42 time units... or 1 sentry/2stalker + Cannons/pylons every 42 units. The flexibility is VERY good, don't be intimidated by the 100 gas, it helps you forget about the 50 minerals which can turn out to be more useful in the long run as anti-harrassment.

[DemolitionSquid]

There are a few options that I use to handle this. It's part of my typical build, I'm under the assumption that it's 1v1.

- Build 1 zealot and go right into sentry. While you say "it's 100 gas a pop" it's also "50 minerals a pop". I typically do a 3 gate build against zerg. Here's how my macro mentality happens:

If I have 100 gas, I build 2 stalkers and a zealot.
If I have 150 gas, I go sentry/stalker/zealot
If I have 200 gas, I go sentry/stalker/stalker or sentry/sentry/zealot. (depends on my current mix)

The majority of the time I have 200 gas as I don't really tech higher until after the initial roach push. See my notes below regarding macro per 42 time units.

You WILL have enough minerals because sentries are VERY mineral light. The idea is that the gas helps you decide at the moment what to build. Make at least 2 units that involve the best use of your gas, then use the remaining one for a zealot. When you get 5-6 sentries. Depending on their build, if they do the PURE roach, I don't even build extra zealots and just pump stalker/sentry. The reason is, pushing them back with force fields actually screws the zealots, so they're wasted minerals. I'd rather use the minerals to get early prep for mutas.

As you go heavy sentry, you use less minerals. This allows you to easily pump your probes without worry. Goto full saturation off the bat and don't oversaturate against a zerg. It won't be hard to do as you'll be using less minerals initially with your sentries. This will allow you to do a few things.

If they do double expansion, use the extra minerals to counter expand and get 2 pylons/4 cannons in both bases to hold the mutas at bay until you get there with your stalker/sentry heavy army. That or counter depending on how you do. If you want something to soak damage, like zealots, just research hallucination and before you run in, click CSCSCSCS and boom, 8 fake stalkers to take the hits. (I typically have 6-7 sentries against zerg.) Guardian shield and smart force fields will come with practice, but if you don't have zealots, you'll find them WAY more efficient than they used to be.

Also, upgrade armor first, it benefits guardian shield very well.
Even if you stick with 1 base builds... You can easily make the right army.

The build time of a stalker or sentry or immortal is 42 time units. In 42 time units on an efficiently saturated base (16min, 6gas) you get between 200 and 205 gas and 620-625 minerals. That's enough to go 1 immortal/2stalker/1pylon every 42 time units... or 1 sentry/2stalker + Cannons/pylons every 42 units. The flexibility is VERY good, don't be intimidated by the 100 gas, it helps you forget about the 50 minerals which can turn out to be more useful in the long run as anti-harrassment.

This is more what I needed. Thank you.

[Islandsnake]

Since most zergs open roaches I usally immortal push them and win straight off, people "think" they can survive with roaches and a few stray lings and they are wrong!

Or Sometimes I just open phoenix with a few cannons at my natural to stop early roaches while securing my expand - Phoenix do beat mutas, you just need enough - I usually rush to get 3 then pop into there base right when they hit lair and kill there queen and several overlords all while teching up to w/e I feel is necessary - after they see that im clearly taking control of the air they rarely try to get mutas.


The issue is, almost nothing beats hive roaches zealots and storm? nope Zealots and colossi? Nope You really need immortals/zealots/and maybe some storm to dent there roaches.

And because there cheap on gas its really hard to do anything late game - they can tech up to brood lords, since there at hive anyway and attack you with Roach/Hydra/Brood lord - and your only really on 2 bases at this point. Thats the strongest anti ground army in the game, I really dont have a answer for it atm.


I think the protoss can get a decent mid game push to cripple the zerg, I have a mid game push with the phoniex build that usally takes out there 3rd base but after that I fall short. And the immortal build really punishes them for opening roaches they cannot touch you for awhile leaving you to take your natural if you see they have enough units to stop your rush. You can take advanatge of this by getting a early OBS after your immortals and just counter what there getting while taking map control and hopefully your third base.

PvZ is hard right now - PvT is pretty hard too actually haha

Though there are things that are hard for the zerg as well.

[Kknewkles]

Squid, hi. Have you considered using Phoenix as a scout? =)

[DemolitionSquid]

Squid, hi. Have you considered using Phoenix as a scout? =)

What part of "its suicide to try teching both Robo and Stargate" didn't you get?

[Zigurd]

Gifted saving the day.

Either way I must say that the challenge is imba. Since it takes less effort for the zerg to do this build than for the Protoss to defend against it.

In my mind, two players with the same level of skill and APM, the Zerg would win with this strat.