I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[DemolitionSquid]

AFXFTW has always had trouble committing.

[Gifted]

And you are?
JK welcome back AFX, seems like you are not that old for SC2 after all...

I agree with that, but again you might check again the part you quoted in your post. By his words, we are clueless and stupid. Alright then...

I was fully aware of it. Note my first reply after the quote

First, please be more respectful in these forums. Many people, including yourself I suspect, come here for more competent and mature conversation and when you say thinks like the above it doesn't assist that tone at all nor assists in others respecting your opinion regarding the matter... but I disgress

[newcomplex]

Hey guys, I'm back, and I've been watching a lot of SC2 replays. Has anyone here tried getting a forge and fast +1 attack and a few cannons at choke and mineral line? This seems like it would make your stalker and sentry defense much more effective while using a minimum of gas and gateway space.

Of course, you also should not overlook the capabilities of phoenixes. They're great harassment units and they are cost effective against mutas. Personally, I would NEVER go immortals against zerg, even if they are a hard counter against roaches. I think they have their place in that they can buy you time while you tech to colossus if you think the Zerg will try to do a timing roach break. (Depends what your obs sees of course), but I think rushing robo gate is a risky tech against zerg and you shouldn't expect it to work if it's scouted immediately or if the Zerg player was planning on muta-ling from the beginning.

Rather, my two strategies would be zealot/phoenix with harass and eventually charge and dark or high templar, or fast warp gate zealot/stalker/sentry with fast +1 ups and cannons to supplement against roach/muta.

Your simply not going to win if you let Zerg secure a unharrassed expansion early in the game, and let them saturate it by the time they get muts, regardless of your army composition. I think thats fair.


Photon Cannons are good, but their mainly meant to buy time so that you can get some troops to your mineral line in time. Only time you want to get them early is if you get roach hard rushed (which is really stupid unless you try to FE), or if your trying to FE on Lost Temple, early forge lets you take a easy fast expo, where you can easily match muta production several fold due to better protoss economy saturation.

Remember, every roach you make them make is 25 less gas and 2 less workers (one from cost, one from larva). Go harrass asap. I'm gravitating towards 3gate right now in PvZ before patch, not sure why it would change after since only thing that changed was a buff for stalkers.


Also Squid are you ignorings me :O? I get that feeling for some reason since I started posting here again which is odd because I don't remember even saying much to you before lols.

[RamiZ]

Also Squid are you ignorings me :O? I get that feeling for some reason since I started posting here again which is odd because I don't remember even saying much to you before lols.

What the hell with this question? Of course he is ignoring you.

[DemolitionSquid]

Ignoring who now?

[newcomplex]

What the hell with this question? Of course he is ignoring you.

I'm confuse.

[RamiZ]

I'm confuse.

Good.

[AFXFTW]

I get that cannons have the cost of putting you more on the defensive. My idea is that you use the time they buy you either to expand (if the map allows you to do that comfortably), or to tech and prep for a timing attack. If your timing is good, you should be able to either punish the Zerg for being greedy economically or at least do enough damage to catch up economically as you go into the middle game.

The great thing about the forge is that +1 attack is very strong before zerg gets carapace, and in most situations you should have plenty of opportunity to take advantage of that upgrade gap with chrono boost.

If the opponent's mutas are hanging around your base, you'll be glad you have a cannon or two near your mineral line, and you can use guardian shield to lessen the amount of damage mutas can do even if you can't kill them all off. In the mean time, hopefully your +1 zealots can get into the zerg base and kill some drones or a tech structure. Depending on the timing, you can take most of your stalker/sentry with you to protect the zealots from mutas, and take out the zerg natural entirely. Bring a probe with you to make a reinforcement pylon, and the Zerg will always lose a base-trade-race.

In the case that the zerg is going roach/hydra, you'll need to scout this and get your tech going to do some combination of expanding and harrassing their economy. Try to kill a queen, or storm a mineral line, or something. You must use your tech advantage. In a straight-up low-tech dps fight, roach+hydra should consistently beat any combination of zealot/stalker/sentry even with +1 attack, except at your ramp.

Also, while I don't like the idea of letting the zerg player take his natural for free, I have yet to be convinced that protoss players can do anything to stop it in the short run. I don't think, however, that that economic advantage is an instant win button for the Zerg. Protoss players just need to learn game timing and use their tech advantages effectively.

[DemolitionSquid]

I would just like to be able to determine the pace of the match as Protoss instead of always being forced into counters. Is that too much to ask?

I don't get Immortals because I can attack with them and force my opponent into massing Zerglings so I can catch them with my Colossus. I built them to counter his Roaches I know are coming, to try and live long enough to get more Stalkers to counter his Mutas which I know are coming. Everything I build is a counter. I'm never able to be the one forcing my opponent to try and counter me. P has no flow control. It ain't right.

[Nicol Bolas]

I'm never able to be the one forcing my opponent to try and counter me.

Of course you are. By getting Immortals, you force the Zerg player to not mass Roaches. He has to use something else.