I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[Alterran]

If we're so "stupid", please explain why the correct course of action, the best possible thing he could have done under the circumstances was to do what he did.

There is one simple fact that you don't seem to understand: fighting with half your army is almost always worse than fighting with all of it. The only time this is not true is if you're fighting a delaying action, holding the enemy off until your defenses are in place or your next wave can deal with the issue.

The Zerg player was not fighting a delaying action. Indeed, he could not be, because the Protoss player walled himself off from the natural. That meant that, while the non-burrow move Roaches were unable to shoot at the Stalkers and Sentries, so too were the non-Blinking Stalkers unable to attack the actual base. The Protoss player created a stand-off, one that was guaranteed to last until the FFs gave out.

In short, there was already a delay in the Protoss attack, caused by the Protoss player himself.

Therefore, the sacrifice of the Mutalisks when they jumped across the FF barrier was utterly pointless. Attacking with half your units is not as effective as attacking with all of them.

Even if the situation was utterly hopeless, as you suggest, then the correct course of action is to GG, not to piss away half your units for no gain.

What you say is kinda true, there is a delay in the protoss attack, but a delay does not equal loss of the ability to advance further if you back off, he can easy make the wall expanding in the direction he wants to take the battle.

What im saying is that the situation there was lost, the battle was too close to home for a weardown of energy and no overlords means too long time will pass to create hydras, and to tech burrow would also take far longer than he has.

Even stalling and trying to keep the protoss static will result in lost forces every time the protoss loses a forcefield and you push a bit to scare.
And i much doubt he will be scared if you dont go in with ur mutas aswell, he has 2 immortals.

He is facing a perfect counter for his army, there is really nothing to be done if he cant even produce units...
You have to agree sentries/stalkers/immortal is the perfect counter for muta/roaches?

[Pandonetho]

What im saying is that the situation there was lost, the battle was too close to home for a weardown of energy and no overlords means too long time will pass to create hydras, and to tech burrow would also take far longer than he has.

We're not talking about overlords or hydralisks. We're talking about how the Zerg player should not have fought with half his army instead of with his whole army composition.

Did you notice that from the end of the fight with the mutalisks alone that there were only 3-4 sentries left? Not only that, roaches (from what I hear) eat Stalkers out alive.

Now imagine what would have happened if the Roaches were actually involved in that battle?

Edit: I looked at the replay again, this time counting the units in each army.

The Protoss army has - 13 stalkers, 13 sentries, 2 immortals, and 2 zealots
The Zergy army has - 24 mutalisks, 21 roaches, 3 queens, and 10 Zerglings.

Are you seriously saying that the Zerg with double an army size couldnt not have taken on that Protoss army? Protoss had no storm, and sentries who aren't even real fighters, and are definitely not good against Roaches.

[Alterran]

Quit being an ignorant fool, he walled himself OUT. How do you expect him to advance? If he makes forcefields in advance how many do you think he can make effectively?

He had a couple of advantages that time.
1) The fact that he was at a choke and thus could not be attacked from behind and only need a semi circle wall of forcefields.
2) Making a semi circle forcefield is nowhere as hard as making a 3/4 circle of forcefields or even a full circle.

Furthermore, when the FF wears off all the Zerg player had to do was re-initiate a battle and back off again the moment a new wall came up.

Quit ignoring the facts. I like how you purposely avoid answering to the question of the situation he would have been in if he had managed to gather his forces and destroy the Protoss army, even if he would lose his expansion.

Did you notice he had no defenses in his base? If the Zerg player had killed off the army, EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF LOSING HIS EXPANSION, he would have free reign over the Protoss base with his mutalisks.

I dont ignore anything purposely. I just dont know how the protoss can lose that army, its the best units available vs his units.

And i just dont understand how you can assume he will be able to keep mutalisks alive vs those units. It would be mindblowing to me if the protoss loses that battle and the zerg still has forces to go for a attack.( he has 1k minerals and now working base with minerals)
I know the protoss has 4 sentries in his base, he has a robotics bay + facility working, he has warp gates ready, he has an abundance of minerals and gas even if he loses the battle.

Lets say he keeps 8 mutalisks alive and loses all else?
Thats probably the very best that can happen anyhow right?
The protoss has 4 sentris, will warp in 4 more or 4 stalkers while building something else aswell, right? colossus or immortal, whatever.

I would say the zerg was not in a good situation if he lost that natural?

Furthermore, here is little lesson for you. Unless you catch them in the smack middle of the open you are always going to have something to wall off with, even if its not the choke, it could be the wall to the left? who knows, its easy to use terrain.

[Pandonetho]

And i just dont understand how you can assume he will be able to keep mutalisks alive vs those units. It would be mindblowing to me if the protoss loses that battle and the zerg still has forces to go for a attack.( he has 1k minerals and now working base with minerals)

Yeah? Did you see how much money the Zerg had? That's right, he had 1500 minerals and more than TRIPLE the gas by the time the fight was over. If he had won that battle he could have built more units while harassing with mutalisks and roaches.

How many more sentries or stalkers do you think he could have build with 300-400 more gas? Another 4 sentries?

[Alterran]

We're not talking about overlords or hydralisks. We're talking about how the Zerg player should not have fought with half his army instead of with his whole army composition.

Did you notice that from the end of the fight with the mutalisks alone that there were only 3-4 sentries left? Not only that, roaches (from what I hear) eat Stalkers out alive.

Now imagine what would have happened if the Roaches were actually involved in that battle?

Edit: I looked at the replay again, this time counting the units in each army.

The Protoss army has - 13 stalkers, 13 sentries, 2 immortals, and 2 zealots
The Zergy army has - 24 mutalisks, 21 roaches, 3 queens, and 10 Zerglings.

Are you seriously saying that the Zerg with double an army size couldnt not have taken on that Protoss army? Protoss had no storm, and sentries who aren't even real fighters, and are definitely not good against Roaches.

Yes, but the mutas did almost all the dmg, its wierd of you to assume that the roaches could be involved at all, the sentries would be just auto attacking or sleeping you mean?
There were 5 alive after the 24 mutalisks went down...

The whole point here is, he is attacked by that force, his army is bigger but the units hes facing is a perfect counter.
He will not be able to engage that force with his roaches, ever. Not unless lots of sentries dies. And that wont happen unless like... 24 mutalisks die?

And no, roaches does not eat stalkers alive when the stalkers are combined with sentries.

[Nicol Bolas]

The whole point here is, he is attacked by that force, his army is bigger but the units hes facing is a perfect counter.

No, he's not. The mass Sentries/Stalkers may be able to kill Mutalisks, but they can't kill the Roaches that effectively. And if the Mutalisks stayed out of the fight until the Sentries were killed off, the Stalkers would have been easy prey.

And again, burrowed movement. The fact that the Zerg player went for Roaches and didn't bother to get this is utterly stupid and completely without excuse. Without Observers, they could easily just pop up on top of the Sentries and annihilate them, then fight the Stalkers with Mutalisk support.

[Alterran]

No, he's not. The mass Sentries/Stalkers may be able to kill Mutalisks, but they can't kill the Roaches that effectively. And if the Mutalisks stayed out of the fight until the Sentries were killed off, the Stalkers would have been easy prey.

And again, burrowed movement. The fact that the Zerg player went for Roaches and didn't bother to get this is utterly stupid and completely without excuse. Without Observers, they could easily just pop up on top of the Sentries and annihilate them, then fight the Stalkers with Mutalisk support.

Sure, and no forcefields are used?
And there were 2 immortals there.
How the hell is he going to kill sentries when they are supported by immortals and stalkers? Did protoss forget to forcefield? Roaches cant even fire at the sentries, how can they finish them off ?

so 21 roaches vs 13 sentries, 13 stalkers and 2 immortals, and u think roaches kills most of the sentries? hehe...

Ur totaly right on the burrow thing, the zerg would win easy if forcefield didnt work and all his roaches attacked at once.

But there is no way to get the roaches into a fair fight as it was
Also not possible for either roaches or mutalisks to finish off the sentries.

[Skyze]

Ive almost lost to toss afew times, they are my biggest threat..

Just play smart.. Do a timing attack with sentry/zeal/immortals and you can almost kill them (if you micro, easy win).. Or do the 1 void ray harass, that catches some zergs off guards and 1 unit can kill a whole zerg base.

Or you do zeal/sentry/phoenix, and use the phoenix to lift queen/roaches and kill them/weaken the zerg force, while your zeal/sentry rips thru. Phoenix's are really strong with lift.

The KEY is using forcefield to make the roach army not get in its "spread", so you only attack so many roaches at a time.. and making sure to have a solid timing for attacking, that is the key, gotta kill the zerg before they get beefy.

[Norfindel]

Alterran, it's damn easy: just wait for FFs to wear off. If the Protoss player advances, he cannot use the FFs, because the area to cover would be huge. If he casts them again, he losses energy just to delay the confrontation, as he cannot move past the FFs himself.

Did you noticed that the Zerg player had other bases? He could had buit units from there, while the Protoss player delayed the confrontation, arriving right behind the Protoss player forces.

The Zerg player did a lot of things wrong at the end of the game. First, he losses the high-yield expansion without defending it at all. Then, he losses a lot of his Overlords, when most of them could had been moved back to his base, leaving just enough to scout.

[whitefire]

protoss have always required some finess and skill to use. alot more than terran or zerg. that being said pheonix dont suck in fact they totally own roach/muta builds and I have proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLFVV...hic&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UIFe...eature=related.