I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[Alterran]

Your units would survive to continue the fight once the FFs come down. That's the point. The FFs stall his attack as much as they stall your defense.

Once the FFs come down, it's a fair fight. But sitting behind the FFs where you units can be shot but can't shoot back is stupid. That is simply suiciding units. Even if the situation was hopeless, suiciding units is not more effective than doing smart things with them.

It should also be pointed out that burrowed movement would likely have gotten around the FFs. I haven't tested it, but there's every chance it would have allowed them to go under the FFs. And since Roaches where his tech of choice, I'm wondering where burrowed movement was.

No, burrow can not go under FF.

And the point i was making here is, he can not back off without losing his natural. That fight is like 2 sec away from it, if he has to force the protoss out of energy he will have to charge so many times that he will still lose a big amount of units.(lets just say the protoss is none retarded and dont put FF the exact same spot when no one is around to fire on.)

And yes, energy is not eternal and there are ways around this, but in THAT FIGHT, it was too late to back off. If he loses his only mineral income its GG.
He could back off 1-2 times maybe that fight, but the sentries would still have FF in abundance. Like i said, those were not fresh warped in sentries, many were full 200 energy.

Im not saying its not possible to make them run out of energy or that there are not ways to defend against it this, but in that video the fight was forced and could not be avoided without loss of natural. Just watch the video and realize just how close to fire range the natural is.

[RamiZ]

And yes, energy is not eternal and there are ways around this, but in THAT FIGHT, it was too late to back off. If he loses his only mineral income its GG.
He could back off 1-2 times maybe that fight, but the sentries would still have FF in abundance. Like i said, those were not fresh warped in sentries, many were full 200 energy.

It was too late to back off? Are you kidding me? That fight lasted forever cause there were a big mass of units and Protoss didn't have enough firepower to finish that fight quickly. If he had, he wouldn't be using in the FFs in the first place...

Just watched it, fight lasted for ~15 sec, and they didn't die instantly, all of his Mutas died when ~10 sec passed. And he had so much units, he could just back off and swarm the Protoss after FFs, I am sure that Protoss didn't have much more energy and if he had, he had to enter in Zerg's natural. Then, he wouldn't be able to block all "entrances" to his army, and fight would be won by Zerg.

Let be realistic, Zerg screwed up. It happens, but coming here and stating that Zerg couldn't do much is just wrong, when any normal person can see that he could won that fight easily if he just back off. He had a ~22 Mutalisks vs. 12 Sentries and 12 Stalkers, but he also had more than 10 Roaches that weren't even in a fight.

[Pandonetho]

No, burrow can not go under FF.

I don't know where you get your facts but you just lose credibility each time you lie.

Burrow movement CAN in fact go under FF, because I just tested it.

And the point i was making here is, he can not back off without losing his natural. That fight is like 2 sec away from it, if he has to force the protoss out of energy he will have to charge so many times that he will still lose a big amount of units.(lets just say the protoss is none retarded and dont put FF the exact same spot when no one is around to fire on.)

So are you saying that losing the game (which is exactly what that Zerg player did) is preferable than having a CHANCE of losing your natural where you'll then be able to retaliate if you manage to destroy the Protoss forces? Right.

[Norfindel]

The FFs could block the choke, but if the Protoss player wanted to attack the expansion, he would need to move down, and then the Roaches could have surrounded.

Anyways, everything is better than leaving your units there to die without doing any damage. Even if your expansion goes down, that's better than your expansion and units going down.

[Nicol Bolas]

Im not saying its not possible to make them run out of energy or that there are not ways to defend against it this, but in that video the fight was forced and could not be avoided without loss of natural. Just watch the video and realize just how close to fire range the natural is.

Even if that is true, throwing away your units is never helpful. If you're right and the loss of the natural was inevitable, he should have saved what he could and expanded elsewhere while using his units to fight a delaying action (forcing him to Force Field and then back off).

[Alterran]

I don't know where you get your facts but you just lose credibility each time you lie.

Burrow movement CAN in fact go under FF, because I just tested it.

So are you saying that losing the game (which is exactly what that Zerg player did) is preferable than having a CHANCE of losing your natural where you'll then be able to retaliate if you manage to destroy the Protoss forces? Right.

Each time i lie? well feel free to point out those times. Just burrow right? yea i was wrong about that, still doesnt change a singel thing. About my real point here...

Please people, just watch the video and then talk to me...
It seams you are all blind or just plain stupid here.
He has to build lots more overlords to be able to build any unit.
He cant leave his natural if he wants to keep up his income.
He cant leave his natural if he wants to build more hydralisk / roaches.

He can run and build a new base? yep, gl with that. I suppose he could have.
But both you and me know its not going to work vs that kinda army, he needs tech or lots of hydras. To gain either he needs a lot of time + his natural.

And please dont tell me he could have built diffrent stuff or gone diffrent tech, the only thing about his play im defending here is that he has to continue the fight once it started that close to his base.

Im not talking about what he could have done diffrent before the fight, im talking about the fact that he needs to take the fight when it started.

There is just no way in hell he can keep his army and his expansion! Its one or the other.

[Pandonetho]

Are you smoking pot or just plain blind? We're talking about how he should have BACKED UP A BIT.

You know what, let's chop it down to 2 options.

You have an army of roaches and mutas.

Option A) You going to send in your mutas ALONE to fight a bunch of stalkers and sentries, effectively halving your army, so that your roaches will die after, resulting in you losing.

Or

Option B) Back off and gather your forces, then try to retaliate after the force fields wear off. This time, you'll at least have a chance of destroying his army and pushing back into Protoss territory. Hell, your expansion isn't even guaranteed to die. The more he pushes in the more he has to use force fields since he's not at a choke anymore.

Use yours eyes. I cannot believe you're actually arguing that he had no other choices that could have been a better option.

[Nicol Bolas]

There is just no way in hell he can keep his army and his expansion! Its one or the other.

If we're so "stupid", please explain why the correct course of action, the best possible thing he could have done under the circumstances was to do what he did.

There is one simple fact that you don't seem to understand: fighting with half your army is almost always worse than fighting with all of it. The only time this is not true is if you're fighting a delaying action, holding the enemy off until your defenses are in place or your next wave can deal with the issue.

The Zerg player was not fighting a delaying action. Indeed, he could not be, because the Protoss player walled himself off from the natural. That meant that, while the non-burrow move Roaches were unable to shoot at the Stalkers and Sentries, so too were the non-Blinking Stalkers unable to attack the actual base. The Protoss player created a stand-off, one that was guaranteed to last until the FFs gave out.

In short, there was already a delay in the Protoss attack, caused by the Protoss player himself.

Therefore, the sacrifice of the Mutalisks when they jumped across the FF barrier was utterly pointless. Attacking with half your units is not as effective as attacking with all of them.

Even if the situation was utterly hopeless, as you suggest, then the correct course of action is to GG, not to piss away half your units for no gain.

[Alterran]

Are you smoking pot or just plain blind? We're talking about how he should have BACKED UP A BIT.

You know what, let's chop it down to 2 options.

You have an army of roaches and mutas.

Option A) You going to send in your mutas ALONE to fight a bunch of stalkers and sentries, effectively halving your army, so that your roaches will die after, resulting in you losing.

Or

Option B) Back off and gather your forces, then try to retaliate after the force fields wear off. This time, you'll at least have a chance of destroying his army and pushing back into Protoss territory. Hell, your expansion isn't even guaranteed to die. The more he pushes in the more he has to use force fields since he's not at a choke anymore.

Use yours eyes. I cannot believe you're actually arguing that he had no other choices that could have been a better option.

I already told you, he has like 3x the amount of FF that fight, and he would NOT have used that many if the zerg backed up.
To really think you can wear that force of sentries energy down before your expansion is in the fire is starting to get amusing.

In ur example you say that you wait untill FF wears off, then he will be afk and not make any more? very good, smart. I didnt think of that!

Lets say you back up, the protoss will obviously start going down towards the natural for attacking / placing FF using the hive as a rock.
I know i would. Any attacking player would advance if you "back off a bit". Placing forcefields further in the direction your army is located while moving.
To think you will be able to stop him from doing that if you run away out of his fire range is moronic.

There is nothing stopping the protoss from making a forcefield wall further ahead in advance to be able to take out the expansion if you flee out of fire range.

[Pandonetho]

I already told you, he has like 3x the amount of FF that fight, and he would NOT have used that many if the zerg backed up.
To really think you can wear that force of sentries energy down before your expansion is in the fire is starting to get amusing.

In ur example you say that you wait untill FF wears off, then he will be afk and not make any more? very good, smart. I didnt think of that!

Lets say you back up, the protoss will obviously start going down towards the natural for attacking / placing FF using the hive as a rock.
I know i would. Any attacking player would advance if you "back off a bit". Placing forcefields further in the direction your army is located while moving.
To think you will be able to stop him from doing that if you run away out of his fire range is moronic.

There is nothing stopping the protoss from making a forcefield wall further ahead in advance to be able to take out the expansion if you flee out of fire range.

Quit being an ignorant fool, he walled himself OUT. How do you expect him to advance? If he makes forcefields in advance how many do you think he can make effectively?

He had a couple of advantages that time.
1) The fact that he was at a choke and thus could not be attacked from behind and only need a semi circle wall of forcefields.
2) Making a semi circle forcefield is nowhere as hard as making a 3/4 circle of forcefields or even a full circle.

Furthermore, when the FF wears off all the Zerg player had to do was re-initiate a battle and back off again the moment a new wall came up.

Quit ignoring the facts. I like how you purposely avoid answering to the question of the situation he would have been in if he had managed to gather his forces and destroy the Protoss army, even if he would lose his expansion.

Did you notice he had no defenses in his base? If the Zerg player had killed off the army, EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF LOSING HIS EXPANSION, he would have free reign over the Protoss base with his mutalisks.