I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!

[GRUNT]

You need to cannon up, Dsquid. You can't rely purely on Stalkers/Sentries to hold off Mutalisks.

Think like Terrans do in BW - Cannons are basically there not to stop a Mutalisk attack cold, but to hold them off until your ground force can get there.

[Norfindel]

Why this doesn't surprise me? The Muta was a pain in the ass to balance the first time, because they have the same air and ground attack, and the Roach needs very specific counters.

Really, the Roach is too cheap. For 75m 25g 1 supply, you get 145hp 2 armor 16 attack + fast regen while burrowed. One doesn't needs to be a genius to notice it's freaking OP for cost.

[DemolitionSquid]

You need to cannon up, Dsquid. You can't rely purely on Stalkers/Sentries to hold off Mutalisks.

Think like Terrans do in BW - Cannons are basically there not to stop a Mutalisk attack cold, but to hold them off until your ground force can get there.

Hold them off for 5 seconds while they focus fire my Pylons in a ball? Good plan

[RamiZ]

Hold them off for 5 seconds while they focus fire my Pylons in a ball? Good plan

Well, if you are building four cannons on the field where only one Pylon "works" than you are doing it wrong... Even if you have two Pylons, and Zerg decide to destroy those Pylons with Mutas, he will lose more than 3 Mutas, and 3 Mutas for 2 Pylons is good trade, especially if you can come to support those cannons on time. And even if you can't, he will lose much more that you do + you need just to make those Pylons for Cannons to work again anyway.

[Nicol Bolas]

You know, I'm normally against bringing back old SC1 units, but I would gladly scrap the Phoenix and bring back the cheap, quick Corsair right now.

That would only be acceptable if I can have Scourge back with SC2-level AI. If the Protoss can guarantee air superiority with 400 gas, then I want to be able to swat that air superiority with a similar cost.

Really, the Roach is too cheap. For 75m 25g 1 supply, you get 145hp 2 armor 16 attack + fast regen while burrowed. One doesn't needs to be a genius to notice it's freaking OP for cost.

That can't attack air and has so little range that you can't even line 3 of them up and hit the same target. There is a very hard limit on the number of Roaches, beyond which they become ineffective.

Oh, and to get that "fast regen while burrowed," the unit must become immobile. Oh, and you have to tech to Lair and get a 100/100/100 upgrade. If you want them to be able to move (and thus be useful), you have to get a 150/150/100 upgrade on top of that.

So let's count. To make your 75/25/1 unit actually a real threat, you must:

1: Spend 150/100 on a Lair.
2: After the Lair, get a 100/100/100 upgrade.
3: After the Lair, get a 150/150/100 upgrade.
4: Use burrow micro, so no more A-moving.

Yeah, that's a really overpowered unit

[GRUNT]

Hold them off for 5 seconds while they focus fire my Pylons in a ball? Good plan

What does your opponent have? 12 Mutalisks? The Cannons are there to stop a raiding force, not to kill mass mutalisks.

And if your opponent has 12 Mutalisks in the first place, you haven't been playing right. If he's Roach-heavy, there's no reason why you can't have a decent number of Stalkers/Sentries by the time his first Mutas come out. You basically need to push out and catch him in transition. I think that as a decent indicator of timing, you push out as soon as you get your first Immortal.

You keep saying that 'you know how to play the game, but you dont have the skill to pull off what needs to be done'. Well, are you saying that this time, or are you saying that MutaRoach is overpowered and can't be stopped no matter what you do? Because that really sounds like what you're saying. Give us some replays so that we can actually give you better advice. It's easy for you to roll your eyes when I suggest cannons in your base, but you of all people should be able to see the faults in your own playing and you just seem so unwilling to admit that your loss could just be because of your own fault.

I haven't had a loss where I looked at the replay and said: "nope, I played as good as I could have - this enemy build is OP." That's why I've never actually complained about a particular build being too powerful and why I've never made such a post with an attached replay. Because I can always see where I went wrong and so can you guys if you were to see replays of my losses. I know that it's easy to look back on your mistakes with hindsight, but the more you play, the less likely you are to make those mistakes again, and your gamesense improves over time.

If you're not going to give us some replays so that we can give you more specific advice, then don't disrespectfully laugh off advice which is given to you in sincerity.

[Gradius]

This is more what I needed. Thank you.

It's great that Gifted basically tells you to make more Sentries and this is your response instead of "Did you miss the "too gas heavy" part?".

[Nicol Bolas]

It's great that Gifted basically tells you to make more Sentries and this is your response instead of "Did you miss the "too gas heavy" part?".

No, Gifted gave out a specific build order with various transition points and timings. That's a far cry from a general "make more Sentries" post.

[Gifted]

Well, I presented the case as "this is how you work with the issue of heavy gas" and tried to give solid informaiton, I'm sure the average person could say "make sentries and learn to use them". He was sincere, in his own demo way, of trying to find ways to deal with a problem, I saw it as it was.

NOW.. regarding the quote earlier about "get a pheonix for a scout". No need, spend 100/100 on hallucination and make a pheonix whenever you want. Need to see up a hill? Make a collossus. In one game, I actually scared away 10 mutalisks with 10 fake phoenix (It was possible cause of the nearby cannons).. allowing me the remainder of the time to run to his base on scrapyard and pressure him back to a defensive playstyle.

He didn't stick around to see the hits, and with the fact that no one uses hallucination means that people ASSUME it's real.

Let's not even get into the game where I made 24 fake stalkers, and as they ran into the base the guy GG'd before even engaging them. That was priceless.

[Norfindel]

That can't attack air and has so little range that you can't even line 3 of them up and hit the same target. There is a very hard limit on the number of Roaches, beyond which they become ineffective.

Oh, and to get that "fast regen while burrowed," the unit must become immobile. Oh, and you have to tech to Lair and get a 100/100/100 upgrade. If you want them to be able to move (and thus be useful), you have to get a 150/150/100 upgrade on top of that.

So let's count. To make your 75/25/1 unit actually a real threat, you must:

1: Spend 150/100 on a Lair.
2: After the Lair, get a 100/100/100 upgrade.
3: After the Lair, get a 150/150/100 upgrade.
4: Use burrow micro, so no more A-moving.

Yeah, that's a really overpowered unit

You don't build a Lair only for that, and you can find Burrow useful for other purposes. The unit is very powerful even before the upgrades. The upgrades are supposed to keep the unit useful later, and keep it under check earlier.

A requirement of 1 Supply is too low. No unit with that amount of HP (and more importantly: Armor) has only 1 Supply. That has an impact on how much of them you can get quickly and easily.

Once you get the upgrades, all your Roaches get the benefits, so it's not really much for what you get.

By the way, at Hive there's an upgrade to increase the Roach regeneration, even when it's not Burrowed.

Let's not even get into the game where I made 24 fake stalkers, and as they ran into the base the guy GG'd before even engaging them. That was priceless.

That's hilarious, but isn't it kind of risky to build that many Sentries?