The Reason Why Lurker Was Removed

[newcomplex]

The mere fact that this statement can even be said shows a failure of the UI. It's actually really annoying; the attack UI tooltips tell you almost everything you might want to know except whether the attack is AoE.

The UI in SC2 fails in every way possible. Lol, kinda ironic I complaining about this, but the UI is literally still in 98. For instance, all time counters on the UI are wrong, because they are set for fast, not fastest, and their all wrong by a margin of 1.35.

And seriously, I still have no idea whether the ultralisk is AOE or not. I used it once and it completely bulldozed M&M, so I think it is....

The zerg need a t2 unit that counters roaches and provides utility, that should replace the lurker.

[SCpollo]

Zerg really need another unit right now, probably in T2.

The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

I want to see a new Hydra mutation, like a real Zerg Siege Weapon.
.

you already have banelings, ultralisks and broodlords, what else could you possibly need?

i heard that the lurker wasnt noob freindly and thats why it got removed, could be wrong tho

[newcomplex]

[QUOTE=SCpollo;72447]The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3

The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

First of all, if your counting nydus, they have five, but I have no idea why you would count the Nydus. It isn't a unit.

Zerg play feels incredibly polarized. Your either going hydraroach or lingsblingsmuta. The two separate lines feel very polarized, while in Terran, they feel almost nonexistent, and their medium in toss. This is extremely boring, and doesn't result in dynamically evolving strategies.

Terran are very non-polarized. You have bio, builds which include marines and maraunders, and mech. Thats it. Both builds can fluidly incorporate each other, both will use medivacs to quickly drop units, but in drastically different ways, both units will employ tanks and even thors. Both builds can get vikings. And you can even blur the line between bio and mech by getting reactors marines, but everything is based in mech. Its a very universal, very fluid strategy. Any build can incorporate virtually any unit, the sole exception being that marauders generally are exlusive to bio builds while hellions tend to gravitate towards mech. Every other unit is a piece of utility. This means I can change dramatically the strategies I'm using by simply chaning one unit. Within Bio, I can take a siege tank instead of medivacs, or I can get vikings instead of medivacs, or I could get a mix of thors and siege tanks, very effective against some roach heavy builds. I have a fluid strategy which constantly changes.

Protoss, you have a mix between rigid and fluid strategies. Your still going to choose a specific tech tree down the roach, but each tech tree can have many different incarnations. Heavy immortals or heavy collosus? Are you going to stress charged zealots over getting collosus. Moreso, it branches from a single core of zealots/stalkers/sentries, and what ratio of the three your going to get will change the match. At the same time, trees are far more solid, and switching between a air build and a collossus will prove difficult.

By the time we get to zerg, their strategies are extremely polarized. You either go zergling/roach/muta(v terran), or hydra/roach/Corruptors (v toss, ). Moreover, its by race. And infestors are the only real fluid unit here, as ultralisk compliment zerglings, and corruptors become broodlings. The only

real variable left here is the infestor and to some extent, the broodlord and ultralisks. Hardly a variable.

And if thats the design direction, of picking a swarm and swarming, that makes sense, we can stick to it, but then its going to need the greatest amount of solidly defined strategies. By adding a central unit tier2, equally the zergling, the roach or the hydra, we can exponentially increase the dynamic of zerg as a whole.

you already have banelings, ultralisks and broodlords, what else could you possibly need?

I don't get this. You listed 3 units. Ehm, ok. I have those. But their are no core permutations that will change my strategies. So what? That doesn't create a better matchup, just a more scalable one, except banelings, which are just plain basic towards any zergling opening.

On top of that, zerg have the least units, which doesn't help at all.

i heard that the lurker wasnt noob freindly and thats why it got removed, could be wrong tho

No. Its not, and that isn't.

[KadajSouba]

Roaches and Infestors can both move move while burrowed. They don't need to attack while burrowed to be effective, since you can attack (or cast spells), burrow, move, unburrow and attack again with better positioning.

But they can be attacked, and you can do nothing about it, unless you unburrow. Now if unburrowed u cant win the fight, then u have to run. Not that effective at all.

Dark templars are completely invis and can attack this way, ghosts can go invis, and attack and summon spells this way. Lurker had the ability to attack while "invis". So moving while burrowed, but being unable to do shit, isnt that effective at all.

[Aldrius]

Uh, yeah, burrow-movement on the Infestor is really nice, but it's no substitute for cloaked attacking.

In general I think the tier 2 Lurker could still fill in a lot of roles that the Zerg are lacking, and there are a ton of ways to make them not overlap TOO much with banelings.

The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

Numbers don't matter... roles do. Tier 3 Zerg is very enticing. The Roach upgrade, Ultralisks, Brood Lords, all of them are pretty good. Zerg have a lot of units at tier 2. But that doesn't mean a tier 2 Lurker wouldn't be very much appreciated. :P Though that'd be another returning SC1 unit... but in this case I think it's warranted a bit. *Shrug*

If you put too much up there then you're weakening the race as a whole I think. I mean look at Terran, the only tier 3 unit I'd say they have is the Battlecruiser... even Banshees and Ravens can pop out really early.

Anyway, as for their reasons for removing it. Well, I hate burrow-move on the roach, so I don't think it covers it well at all. Roaches, I just think are covering way too many roles right now and sharing a couple of those with the Lurker wouldn't hurt.

Banelings and Ultralisks are also both melee AoE units... I think the Lurker provides some diversity there.

[Maxa]

I suppose it depends on the specificity of the "roles" you take to be fundamental in Starcraft 2. I'm just not convinced that the Zerg need a unit which can attack while cloaked, as opposed to the more general role of a cloaking attacker. To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

I'm very happy with the roach's role, because in many ways I think that it encourages more inventive play than the dark templar or banshee (or lurker). With roaches you have this very complex hit-and-run style precisely because burrowing has also been paired with (1) movement and (2) accelerated healing. You can't simply bang on your opponents straight on, since roaches must reveal themselves to attack; but at the same time the fight doesn't end when your opponent responds, because roaches can move to another place while burrowed, recover their hitpoints, and pop up somewhere else. It's more engaging than the lurker, which players will very often plant at a location and then essentially leave there until they die or the fight is won, and I think that Blizzard did a good job making the roach a very dynamic unit.

Meanwhile, I don't think that the Zerg should have lurkers in addition to roaches for the same reason that Protoss and Terrans don't have two mass cloak threats. Take all of this, combined with the fact that we already have a problem with too many SC1 units simply being ported to SC2, and I think that the argument against lurkers is very strong.

[Nicol Bolas]

To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

But the Zerg have a massive air unit: Brood Lords.

It's more engaging than the lurker, which players will very often plant at a location and then essentially leave there until they die or the fight is won

You've obviously not seen Lurkers in the hands of a skilled Zerg player.

[SoFool]

boy am I gonna miss the lurkerling days...

[Aldrius]

Meanwhile, I don't think that the Zerg should have lurkers in addition to roaches for the same reason that Protoss and Terrans don't have two mass cloak threats.

But they do... Terran have Ghosts and Banshees, and Protoss have Dark Templar and Motherships.

Generally you don't see ghosts used much for cloaking right now, but that doesn't mean they're not good at it. They can WRECK a mineral line with their attacks alone.

To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

So Zerg don't get an aerial spellcaster, a unit that can cliff-climb, a true cloaked attacker, a capital ship or mass anti-air at tier 1... I don't think they need ALL of these things, but some of them would be nice.

I'm very happy with the roach's role, because in many ways I think that it encourages more inventive play than the dark templar or banshee (or lurker).

I don't really agree, but I haven't played with it that much due to my distaste for it. I know banshees especially take a lot of focus given how slow and fragile they are, and that the energy can run out at any second.

I think the Roaches' mobility makes them a bit less interesting than the Lurker, though. I think the siege-range Lurker or a Lurker with tunneling claws would be dull too, but the 6-7 range immobile Lurker is a perfectly interesting unit. In my opinion.

But on the other hand, I love the Infestor's burrow-move. Especially when they were really fast and fairly durable. So I'd rather they find ways to make that more useful/interesting than giving the roach ANOTHER role... which it doesn't even need.

It's a solid tier 1 armored unit (meaning it's good against speedreapers and hellions and things that zerg struggle against off the creep). It's a good tank. It has an interesting regeneration mechanic. (Which makes it good against melee units and periodic damage like psi storm and such)

I don't really get why it needs cloaked movement on top of all that... I guess to keep it useful when players get Ultralisks... *shrug*

[Asfastasican]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again, if they brought back the defiler, all would be well. Just tone the abilities as needed.

Plague would be fun to use against mass Hydras as well. Not to mention that Dark Swarm would be even better.