Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp

[Todie]

anyway, queen should be the amin concern, steamline SL by making it or atleast its duration, stackable like Alduris just suggested might be nice, but t certainly doesnt solve the problem of lacking energy tension.. Transfusion should work well with spine clawler pushing, which should actually happen in ZvZ even now, sicne they're good vs roaches n all.. however, even considering things like that + spreading creep more actively, it doesnt really affect the energy tension for the in-base-queen - transmute will remain too situational, and creep tumor in whatever cncievable form clearly isnt enough.

problem is though, if we add more utility to her, people might just keep usign her as before only add more queens to do the otehr stuff too.

so we need osmething that is like, mechanicaly bounded to larva and / or hacheries... look at it this way; SL is a great mechanic, its just lonely. why is it great at making the queen work kind of as intended? double cooldowns! one cooldown on the hachery and energy required on the queen. we need more of that!

what about an ability that make eggs hatch faster(cast on hach, same as SL) ... eggs could be made more voulnerable, or units even spawn with half life (roach abusive regen fucks this idea up grrr)
.... sadly this is probably too similar to CB productivity boost, but you get the pictur... this is the kind of ideas for the queen i beleive in.

[flak4321]

I don’t think the Spawn Larvae energy tension issue can be fixed. Such ability is inherently overpowered no matter how offset elsewhere because it is far too attractive and can be used too frequently. I am going to make 2 suggestions. Wall of text warning!

Nerfing:

a) Reduce larvae made from 4 to 2 (or 3).
b) Increase Queen energy regeneration time by 50% (or any other effect that could emulate or create a cooldown effect).
c) A complete change:

Procreation:

Form 1: AoE spell. Cuts 1/3 to 1/2 of growth time of units in affected eggs. Cost of about 60% of max magic points.

Form2: Larvae produced by affected Hatchery produce in about half the time and allows one extra larvae per Hatch. Cost of about 60% of max magic points.

Form 3: AoE spell. No magic cost. Affected eggs produce double units (I.E. 2 drones, Lings, etc. per egg), except for massive units. Note: Mineral and gas costs apply.

Thoughts?

[SlickR]

not good and quite broken to say the least.
just 1 queen allowed? This is very stupid.

You also make the current infester look amazingly good compared to your version.

the other units new/altered abilities also suck or are just abilities that are on some units now, just maoved between them and changed a bit.

overall bad suggestions, sorry.

[Aldrius]

I don't really think energy tension is necessary...

The key thing that energy tension provides is it forces you to choose. And that's what people like. Reasons NOT to use an ability. With chrono-boost, at least in the early game, it's so that you can save it up for something important. Say you want to get the charge or warp-gate upgrades really quickly. And then in the early game do you want zealots or probes faster?

For Terran: Well, first off you need to chose between the Orbital Command and Planetary Fortress. And there are some really cool planetary fortress builds. Then when you do get Orbital Command you need to question whether you want some protection from stealth rushes. (Banshees, DTs, etc.), speed (supply drop... I SWEAR people will figure out how to use this ability) or minerals. (MULE)

For the Queen, it's a bit trickier. Essentially you're choosing between spreading the creep (which is sort of a defensive mechanic, but it's more for map control), Transfusion (which is definitely a defensive mechanic) and Spawn Larvae (which is a production mechanic.)

In the early game there's some tension if you fast expo, you need to be able to defend both expos at once. You'll get your queen late, and you're going to need her for defense. All of the main tension is using your queen to disuade rushes. I mean if you're going to give her ANOTHER ability on the hatchery you might as well just make it a big button on that building.

The key benefit of the Queen is that she's a unit. She can be used as a defensive unit, she can bolster your defensive units, she can spread creep in order to make it easier for your units to defend an area.

She's more than just a macro mechanic IMO. I think one good change would be to make Transfusion increase the energy regeneration of a target unit/building to 10hp/sec for 15 seconds. That'd be a bit more intuitive, and make it more useful on hydralisks and mid-HP units like that. Give her a bit more use outside of the base as well.

I think the main problem is her worth as a defensive unit wanes as the game progresses. I mean even at tier 2 she dies almost instantly to everything. Which is why I think you should be able to invest in her to give her more defensive power. (Whether that would be through pure stats or some other abilities like Toxic Creep or Consume I don't know.)

[Triceron]

Like I said previously, limiting one queen is a problem I have. Multiple queens have use.

Spawn Larvae may not have spell tension, but who cares? Neither does Chrono Boost. Sure Spawn Larvae is capped at intervals, but that's what Transfusion and Spawn Creep Tumor are for. They're supplemental spells for Spawn Larvae, and even if you're the best macro-er in the world, you're going to have a queen with more than 25 energy at some point in the game. It's just as easy to make another hatchery in the base to make use of extra queen energy, you don't have to change the mechanic around so much just because you're using it every chance you get. That's the reason why you can make multiple queens.

[pure.Wasted]

I don't really think energy tension is necessary...

The key thing that energy tension provides is it forces you to choose. And that's what people like. Reasons NOT to use an ability. With chrono-boost, at least in the early game, it's so that you can save it up for something important. Say you want to get the charge or warp-gate upgrades really quickly. And then in the early game do you want zealots or probes faster?

For Terran: Well, first off you need to chose between the Orbital Command and Planetary Fortress. And there are some really cool planetary fortress builds. Then when you do get Orbital Command you need to question whether you want some protection from stealth rushes. (Banshees, DTs, etc.), speed (supply drop... I SWEAR people will figure out how to use this ability) or minerals. (MULE)

For the Queen, it's a bit trickier. Essentially you're choosing between spreading the creep (which is sort of a defensive mechanic, but it's more for map control), Transfusion (which is definitely a defensive mechanic) and Spawn Larvae (which is a production mechanic.)

In the early game there's some tension if you fast expo, you need to be able to defend both expos at once. You'll get your queen late, and you're going to need her for defense. All of the main tension is using your queen to disuade rushes. I mean if you're going to give her ANOTHER ability on the hatchery you might as well just make it a big button on that building.

The key benefit of the Queen is that she's a unit. She can be used as a defensive unit, she can bolster your defensive units, she can spread creep in order to make it easier for your units to defend an area.

She's more than just a macro mechanic IMO. I think one good change would be to make Transfusion increase the energy regeneration of a target unit/building to 10hp/sec for 15 seconds. That'd be a bit more intuitive, and make it more useful on hydralisks and mid-HP units like that. Give her a bit more use outside of the base as well.

I think the main problem is her worth as a defensive unit wanes as the game progresses. I mean even at tier 2 she dies almost instantly to everything. Which is why I think you should be able to invest in her to give her more defensive power. (Whether that would be through pure stats or some other abilities like Toxic Creep or Consume I don't know.)

Your post starts with an analysis of ability tension and choice, but by paragraph 4 that's quickly disappearing. Where'd it go? I don't see the conclusion of your "Queen has as much choice as T/P counterparts, or howevermuch she does have is enough" argument.

[Aldrius]

Your post starts with an analysis of ability tension and choice, but by paragraph 4 that's quickly disappearing. Where'd it go? I don't see the conclusion of your "Queen has as much choice as T/P counterparts, or howevermuch she does have is enough" argument.

Well I'm honestly not sure. I think her being a strong defensive unit (with a race that has VERY weak defenses) gives her a fair bit of energy tension (sort of like Planetary Fortress vs. Orbital Command) but using her defensively takes A LOT more focus than using her as a larvae machine. (Spreading creep tumors is very APM-intensive, so is healing units with transfusion)

So I think if they figured out some way to make her more appealing as an actual unit, and less as a macro mechanic there would be plenty of tension between her roles and abilities.

[pure.Wasted]

Well I'm honestly not sure. I think her being a strong defensive unit (with a race that has VERY weak defenses) gives her a fair bit of energy tension (sort of like Planetary Fortress vs. Orbital Command) but using her defensively takes A LOT more focus than using her as a larvae machine. (Spreading creep tumors is very APM-intensive, so is healing units with transfusion)

So I think if they figured out some way to make her more appealing as an actual unit, and less as a macro mechanic there would be plenty of tension between her roles and abilities.

"Spreading" creep tumors? Why would you ever need to place more than one from the Queen?

Also, I've yet to see a single Zerg use transfusion... which isn't to say it's useless, but I'm pretty sure Spawn Larvae is a bit more effective.

[Aldrius]

"Spreading" creep tumors? Why would you ever need to place more than one from the Queen?

Spread it faster. (Takes freaking forever to spread creep if you just use one tumour.)

It's still APM intensive, though. Even if you're not using the Queens to do it. And of course the first one has to come from a Queen.

Also, I've yet to see a single Zerg use transfusion... which isn't to say it's useless, but I'm pretty sure Spawn Larvae is a bit more effective.

It's hard to use and it's not all that great. But I think the idea of it is sound. I kinda think maybe boosting a unit's HP or improving a unit or something is a bit more sound for Zerg, though. Maybe something that boosts a target zerg unit/buildings' stats by a certain amount or something.

It'd still be situational. But when the siutation needed is 'your opponent attacks your base', it's not all THAT situational.

[pure.Wasted]

It's still APM intensive, though. Even if you're not using the Queens to do it. And of course the first one has to come from a Queen.

Yes but that doesn't give the Zerg any more choice OR energy tension...

If anything, it's tedious busywork...

I'm still intrigued that your original idea was that the Queen has 'enough' choice/energy tension, but you haven't really been able to demonstrate that with your analysis of her abilities and the way they're used (and frankly, don't sound too convinced of it yourself, either).