Protoss= game over?

[Gifted]

Same page Grunt, same page.

@Draco: Hell yes there's a critical mass element to it, it's SOO pleasant! People have ridiculed me in the livestream for getting that many sentries and then see me trap the ENTIRE roach push against a wall like dead monkies in a shiney blue barrel. This also provides me the ability to use a guardian shield and not worry. In a crunch and If I got hallucination, I spam "C->S" and suddenly bust out 16 stalkers. This allows me to run while they trick the AI to attack them or step my main forces 1 step back wards to allow them to take the hits and I stay out of range. Combine this with the fact that I still have the potential of upwards to 5-10 force fields, I can get in position to prevent a run or provide an emergency choke as well.

Sentries up to about 8 is just insane. If you get more, focus more on hallucination usage. (which works great as you can easily scout with it)

[Draco]

By the time roaches have burrow mutas are already easily defendable :/

It's only easily defensible if you primarily focus on AA through cannons, but that provides opportunity for Zerg to take a 3rd.

If you go Immortals to counter the Roaches, that's less gas for Stalker and Sentry. There's a lot more gas tension going on between Obs/Immortal/Sentry/Stalker on 1 base than there is between 5-7 Roaches and Mutas when it's real easy to grab a 2nd.

I know you guys are emphasizing that you're too skilled to be afflicted by the lopsided matchup, but the Korean trend isn't helping your argument. I can use that same card and just say that you're playing relatively weaker opponents. I've made my points, though, and I'll try out all the suggestions.

[KDraconis]

By request of Ernesto, I'm uploading some replays of the Terran cheese/all-in build.



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[Gifted]

It's only easily defensible if you primarily focus on AA through cannons, but that provides opportunity for Zerg to take a 3rd.

If you go Immortals to counter the Roaches, that's less gas for Stalker and Sentry. There's a lot more gas tension going on between Obs/Immortal/Sentry/Stalker on 1 base than there is between 5-7 Roaches and Mutas when it's real easy to grab a 2nd.

I know you guys are emphasizing that you're too skilled to be afflicted by the lopsided matchup, but the Korean trend isn't helping your argument. I can use that same card and just say that you're playing relatively weaker opponents. I've made my points, though, and I'll try out all the suggestions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not awesome by any account, but also I know I don't play a standard game in terms of what units I choose early. I go heavy sentry/light stalker which is something many people say is not common at all. This isn't something that "beats" the typical strats, but it allows for an easier transition to counter the typical rush that your describing. I notice a LOT of zealot/stalker/immortal builds out there with light sentry and that is easily abused by what you're describing exactly so I see what you mean.

When I agree with you saying "typical protoss have hard times with this". I'm merely saying I don't play like a typical protoss, not that I'm more skilled than the average protoss. Sorry if I portrayed things oddly. GRUNT from what I hear is a bit better skilled than the average protoss though, so that may be the possibility with him. ^_^

By request of Ernesto, I'm uploading some replays of the Terran cheese/all-in build.

Much appreciation.

[arthas]

Btw,why is everybody forgeting about the psi-storm? I mean more reps i see the more templars are not used,I mean with a single warp prism you are pretty much free to use all the Psi-storm you can...AND most builds move around robotics facility-bay rather than templar archives...I guess robotics facility is still needed for immortals/prisms/observers while you can sacrifice the collosi for templar archives...

[Nicol Bolas]

I mean with a single warp prism you are pretty much free to use all the Psi-storm you can...AND most builds move around robotics facility-bay rather than templar archives...

Because Psi Storm requires a Twilight Council + Templar Archives + research. By then, 30 Roaches will be in your base, killing your doods.

[DemolitionSquid]

You answered your own question Arthas. In the struggle to get Obs and Immortals to counter Roaches because nothing else really can, the Twilight Counsel and Templar Archives are simply too far off the path. And ignoring the Robo Bay and going straight to Storm is significantly costlier on gas.

Ill put it this way. Lets say you KNOW your opponent is going MutaRoach. To get an Immortal without building a single Stalker costs 300 gas (200 for Bay, 100 for Immortal). That Immortal can deal 50 damage per shot at a fast speed to Roaches. Any Stalkers after that cost 50 gas a pop to counter Mutas.

To get a single HT with Storm costs 550 gas (100 for Counsel, 200 for Archives, 150 for HT, and 200 for Storm upgrade). You also need to consider the extra build times for the Archives and Storm Research. Storm costs 75 energy, HT have a 200 energy max. Storm does 80 damage in 8 bursts of 10. That lets the HT do 160 damage AoE, then the HT gets stuck in a long cooldown. However, its possible for Roaches to avoid most of that damage through micro. Of course, the storm is for the Mutas right? But whats the point in preparing for Mutas if it doesn't really help you counter the Roaches first?

Ironically, you'd be better off going DT than HT verses Zerg simply for the fact a DT can consistantly deal damage and is cloaked.

Actually, I may try that... DT rush vs Zerg... oh snap.

[RamiZ]

It is actually funny seeing all these people complaining about Protoss not able to counter Zerg when all top Protoss players said that PvZ is imbalanced in Protoss' favor... And about TvP, I agree it is hard to counter all-in build, but it is not impossible.

[DemolitionSquid]

It is actually funny seeing all these people complaining about Protoss not able to counter Zerg when all top Protoss players said that PvZ is imbalanced in Protoss' favor... And about TvP, I agree it is hard to counter all-in build, but it is not impossible.

All the top players are macro players, and SC2 is unfortunately a macro sided game, moreso than SC1. I'm a micro player, and thus I die.

[GRUNT]

GRUNT from what I hear is a bit better skilled than the average protoss though, so that may be the possibility with him. ^_^

I play Zerg .

What I say is from my own experience of playing against Protoss opponents and from seeing replays of other ZvPs .

However, not once in any of my losses in my 100+ games have I blamed the loss on a particular unit or build for being too powerful (except one time when I got 2-gate proxied before both the Gateway build time and the Warpgate research time nerfs ). In every single one of my replays, I can find some place where I went wrong. Maybe I wasn't scouting aggressively enough, maybe I just had bad gamesense, maybe I was getting too greedy with expansions, etc. I've never jumped to the conclusion that a unit or build may be OP, even if it may be. I tend to think (just for example): "Wow, Colossi seem too powerful, but they can't be overpowered if other Zerg are able to counter them and be #1 in their Platinum Divisions." If it wasn't for other people complaining about it, I may have felt that the first Beta build was already balanced.

It's a flawed attitude to take, I know, because if everyone felt this way, imbalances would never be ironed out, but I feel that it's so hard for me to say anything is really OP at the moment when the metagame still feels like it's shifting around and that we're not seeing SC2 played at its best yet. I'm certainly not a very good player at all, Gifted . I may be in Gold, but I still lose consistently to Silver Leaguers and am expecting to be kicked back down soon .