"I suck"

[Maul]

This is basically a low content thread where I'm just going to rant but surely I can't be the only one sick of this.

I am tired of seeing endless post after endless posts of beginner or intermediate players making absurd claims of single units being overpowered because they own certain unit types.

eg. "Roaches are unstoppable."
or
"Colossi vs marines/marauders - OP"

I mean come on this is just getting ridiculous. I am not in the beta so naturally I can admit to being jealous and envious of those that are in. I also understand that there are a lot of random opt-ins from casual SC1 players to WoW players who have never played SC1 before. That's fine, I'm not hating on them because Blizzard picked them. That was mostly out of their control.

I also understand that not everyone plays SC2 overly seriously or is that great a gamer. This is fine and acceptable. Even lesser skilled players can contribute to stat gathering, battle.net load testing, etc.

What I do have a problem with is when every forum I go to, especially the SC2B forums on battle.net is they're absolutely infested these "expert" opinions of how, in their limited experience, one certain unit, or a whole race, even, is OP or too weak because of perhaps 2-10 games they lost in. This is not the case.

It bothers me because these people have put very little thought in their conclusions, often just claiming which unit counters the particular unit in question, but rarely asking themselves:
- Why did I lose here?
- Was there other ways to counter this?
- Is the other player more experienced than me?
- What can I try next time?
- What have I learnt to improve upon next time?

You can also argue that it is inevitable that these posts and posters will pop up. I will agree with that. But the sheer amount of pure textual feces being spewed across SC2 discussion sites is disgusting.

If you're not a pro-gamer stop claiming the game is unbalanced without solid evidence proving your claims. Stop wasting everyones time. Sure, start a discussion about your thoughts and learn something, i.e. some counters or alternate builds.

I'm really interested in reading about strategy and interesting combinations/strategies people have discovered or are using, but after seeing such trash and in such volume I have all but given up.

So yes, I'm just ranting but I think I have some grounds to do so and I believe I'm surely not the only one.

Cliff notes:
- OP is jealous of not having a beta
- Idiots make excessive "strategy" posts without a clue or single thought process
- Rant rant rant

[Jabber Wookie]

Lol I completely agree. That is not to say that I believe all the units are balanced, but I've watched replays and it always ends with:

The losing Toss player saying Roaches are imba;
The losing Zerg player saying Marauders are imba;
And the losing Terran player saying warp-in is imba.

(You can mix and match the previous examples as well - e.g. Terran player saying roaches are imba, etc.)

It seems every race is IMBA!! In that case, it must be a balanced game. Not to mention, I believe Browder said they intended to make each unit a little overpowered at the beginning because working backwards is probably much easier than trying to buff weak units.

[newcomplex]

I plays random. Nothings really that imbalanced versus other races. I do think that Protoss's fast warp in just makes the game super stale in general, and so do roaches to a lower extent.

[Maul]

I do think that Protoss's fast warp in just makes the game super stale in general

Because everyone sees that hidden proxy pylon.

/sarcasm

It's strategies like this that make the game exciting and encourage you to scout frequently

[Norfindel]

The people in the BN SC2 Beta forum are the ones playing the beta. If they suck, it's Blizzard's fault for selecting them, or they just gave them beta as a gift (like the keys given in Blizzcon to everyone that payed the cost of the entrance).

Maybe they just ignore whatever is posted there, and rely on the information they gather from better players.

They need low-skilled players to check if the game is playable for newbs, however.

[Maul]

The people in the BN SC2 Beta forum are the ones playing the beta. If they suck, it's Blizzard's fault for selecting them, or they just gave them beta as a gift (like the keys given in Blizzcon to everyone that payed the cost of the entrance).

Yes I already said this.

Maybe they just ignore whatever is posted there, and rely on the information they gather from better players.

That's sound in theory, but it's also the basis of my complaint. There's too many people that are saying they know what wrong with the game when they can't even play it, or don't grasp more complex situations than massing 1 or 2 units and wondering what went wrong.

Input from the better players who more than likely pick their own game apart to improve is invaluable, but there's so much junk to filter through to get to it.

[DemolitionSquid]

"Just cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm not being followed."

I admit I suck. My macro is horrible.

But Roaches are totally fucking OP.

[Norfindel]

Input from the better players who more than likely pick their own game apart to improve is invaluable, but there's so much junk to filter through to get to it.

Well, if Blizzard cannot make a post filter by player rank on their own BN-aware forum...

[newcomplex]

Because everyone sees that hidden proxy pylon.

/sarcasm

It's strategies like this that make the game exciting and encourage you to scout frequently

Previous to todays godsend patch, the opponent would micro a probe into your base and keep it alive for a while. Right before you get zealots up, he makes two pylons, while continuing to micro. If he did this properly, it is literally impossible to take down all the pylons (he cancels the pylons as their about to die). He continues to micro the probe around. He then attacks with 2 zealots in the front+3 zealots warped right behind you. Unless you did the same thing to him, or rushed him with a proxy twogate, the game is over.

This isn't necessarily a problem in lower leagues because most players lack the micro to keep the probe alive, while maintaining the macro to tech at 100% optimality. Once done however, their is NO counter for the build. NONE. Depending on your skill level, 5 zealots+3 every 10 seconds will halt mineral production while he expands, OR, just win if your not good. Only two builds can win a defensive war, forgecannons+2gate or 4gate. If he sees you pursueing either, he simply sacrifices 5 zealots to kill some probes, while you've wasted ~350 gold and behind in tech.

It is literally impossible to kill the probe unless you take a crippling amount of workers off for extend time, or when you have 3 zealots, in which case 3 zealots should be in the process of warping in your base.


I admire your well rounded approach, and I certainly wouldn't think I have the authority or knowledge to make statements like "micro is dead". But in terms of individual, insular balance concerns, a well educated player can make significant contributions in isolated cases. Like this one, which blizzard clearly agreed with the playerbase.

[newcomplex]

"Just cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm not being followed."

I admit I suck. My macro is horrible.

But Roaches are totally fucking OP.

Hey demo...your playing protoss right? I usually pray they go roaches when I random toss (probably my best race atm). Roaches are very counterable, though it is micro intensive. (you said your bad it macro though right ?). Its kind of hard, I'm not going to pretend my silver ass is winning 100% of the time, but when I lose, its a very clear cut case of obvious bad micro or a pool of 500 minerals sitting at my base or something. Easily identified personal skill deficiencies ^_^.

If their going pure fast expand, (no early roaches, teching to them later, usually at around 13-15 food)-Go FP-Immortal. Fake push with zealots in order to tech to immortals, with a standard 3gate. With ~4 zealots and more incoming, you should easily kill the expo handily, just as roaches arrive. This is crucial, and easily doable if you scouted.

Your not trying to end though, and you won't unless their retarded. At this point, if they're intelligent, they should be focusing on roach production and turtle. Do not try to break roaches, you will fail, and lose to the rush afterwards. focus on preserving zealots. But, due to their late tech and failed expo, by the time your zealots are retreating due to too many roaches a robotics bay should be finished and almost done with an immortal. They lack the tech to go t2, and the gas, so just end with 1-2 immortals and 7ish zealots. Best scenario. Easy, almost never lose against this.

If their good gold/lower plat guys, they'll actually have driven my zealots out with a expo halfway done constructing, which is irrelevant now that I have 1 immortal and another coming, while all they have are unupgraded roaches. If they're bad, my zealots will be camped right outside their door, and I'll probably just have proxied a robo bay outside of their base for a superfast immortal. Simply put, they just shouldn't be doing this against a protoss who knows what their doing.

If they roach rushing-turtle with canons while trying to get a ~22 immortal out. (Chronoboost it ofc). With good building layout, you should be fine. GG once immortals pop, push and win. Its a less stupid strategy then #1, as it becomes a micro war, but generally, you should be able to hold off if you keep zealot productions up and rotate units whos sheilds go down.

Those are the two very easily countered strategies (yet still frequently encountered in gold and presumably lower plat).
I feel pretty confident in a win, their certainly rather "cheesy" strategies that can be mechanically countered through strategy and a little bit of micro.

-Otherwise-

It means their going for a roach/FE (expand at ~19 defended by roaches) or a FP/roach/FE (fake a push/rush with roaches while actually trying to expand). In this case, it comes down to whos better. (well, in terms of micro and macro, mechanical skills, I'd say the sides are even. The protoss do have a harder game in terms of strategy, as timing is incredibly crucial, as is scouting, while the zerg simply need to not die, and they basically win.)


If their roach/feing, an early strategy is 3gate with heavy zealot push. If you are able to catch them before roaches pop en mass, and you can do some significant damage, and shifts the game in your advantage.

Your not going to be able to deny the expansion unlike against pure FE, but your going to need to apply heavy pressure to ensure they do not heavy tech into mutas. By the time the second expo is up and about to function, you should have ~12 zealots in bad shape and a immortal. If you microed better then them, you should be able to win, as they should have all in roaches at this point, with at best a t2 building still building.

This is going to be hard, do not under any circumstance try and get an early win by sacrificing zealots before immortals pop. You won't succeed. If zealots do die, pressure is lost, and by the time immortals pop, they'll almost have mutas up, or a couple hydras. At the same time, if you lose more then a couple, because mistakes happen, don't bruteforce it, suck up your losses and retreat. Losing too many zealots is instant GG as the roaches can just streamroll your base. Instead, try and recoup your losses through expansions defended by a immortal while you try and get collosus or enough stalkers to counter mutas. (though at this point, your at a disadvantage)

If they FP/roach/FE, (fake push with heavy pressure by roaches, but not enough to inflict infrastructural or econ damage, rather, to contain and control, in order to ensure their second expo builds without a hitch), I would recommend you just skip immortals, and open up into the multitude of protoss midgame options like collosus or high templar or chargedlots. Try to get an expansion.


In terms of balance, I don't like Roaches because they make ZvZ really gay. But I think their fine against protoss, and most high level PvZ games have shifted away from heavy roach use anyway.