Who misses the Lurker?

[arthas]

The thing the Lurker would take away from is Baneling traps. But you can still do those. And in some cases they'll be more effective. (Once a baneling trap has gone off, your opponent can do nothing. If a Lurker trap goes off and your opponent survives, he can just scan/get an observer and mop up those Lurkers.)



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Hmm,maybe they can add an option to the lurker like the one the ghost has? Hold fire? That way they wll be used effectivly in traps? Imagine a baneling mine field with 4 lurkers in the corners? That's what i call a trap

[Aldrius]

Hmm,maybe they can add an option to the lurker like the one the ghost has? Hold fire? That way they wll be used effectivly in traps? Imagine a baneling mine field with 4 lurkers in the corners? That's what i call a trap

Well, they probably would, but I don't see what that has to do with what I said. I was saying that Lurker traps would pretty much make baneling traps obsolete.

[arthas]

Well, they probably would, but I don't see what that has to do with what I said. I was saying that Lurker traps would pretty much make baneling traps obsolete.

How exacly? if banelings are anti light and lurkers anti armored?

[Aldrius]

How exacly? if banelings are anti light and lurkers anti armored?

Because one doesn't cost you units. The key advantage banelings would have over Lurkers is their mobility and burst damage. That's not quite as important when it comes to a trap.

[Nicol Bolas]

The best way to know if the lurker was still a useful unit was to test it. I know Blizzard did that, but that cannot be compared to a test by thousands of people, thousands of times a day.

While we're at it, let's test out the old Infestor model's siege unit form. And how about bringing back Soul Hunters, so that we can test them too.

Blizzard is not designing this game in Beta. They're using beta to fine-tune the game, not design it.

[Norfindel]

Well, doesn't needs to be exactly the Lurker, but could be a unit that is able to attack and move underground. Basically, it would be like the unit been Cloaked. Underground movement could be slower.

[Todie]

Because one doesn't cost you units. The key advantage banelings would have over Lurkers is their mobility and burst damage. That's not quite as important when it comes to a trap.

i do love that mobility and burst damage, but i dont think those characteristics are strong enough to warrant use of banelings over lurker once you have access to both.. im afraid the lurker would make not just the baneling-trap obsolute (which should actually be bad enough) but make the entire baneling obsolete.

i think nicol verbaized the relevant points quite well, but i suspect you missed what this part really means:

But in that case EVERYTHING is better than banelings.

Right. But because the Zerg (currently) have no other AoE (except Ultralisks way up at Tier 3) or other real anti-mass, Banelings have a place and a purpose.

what Nicol means to point out here is that banelings are a great fit currently, but this is VERY dependant on them being the only real option for direct AoE damage available to the zerg; since its such a huge 'drawback' characteristic for the unit to only be able to deal damage once. -- that drawback makes it unique and cool, but makes it very easily overshadowed by ANY other unit that is able to deal significant splash damage.

[Aldrius]

i do love that mobility and burst damage, but i dont think those characteristics are strong enough to warrant use of banelings over lurker once you have access to both.. im afraid the lurker would make not just the baneling-trap obsolute (which should actually be bad enough) but make the entire baneling obsolete.

And I don't think they would if they were balanced right. Lurkers are tricky to use. Banelings are fast and cheap, and if this is true:

Unfortunately, unless they are also on Creep, they will die well before getting to any MM&M ball. Speedbanes are unnecessarily slow.

Then that's not really a problem with bringing the Lurker back into the game, that's a problem with the baneling. If it's so slow it can't beat a mass marine/marauder army, then... it should probably be a bit faster.

i think nicol verbaized the relevant points quite well, but i suspect you missed what this part really means:

Er... no, I knew exactly what he meant. I just don't think that's a good thing. That a unit is only viable because it has no competition. I mean look at freaking hellions. Ghosts, Reapers, Hellions and Siege Mode tanks ALL counter light. That's a ton of competition. And hellions are by far the most limited of those units. They STILL have a place.

Honestly, though. When the Lurker isn't actually in the game I have trouble predicting or anticipating what the metagame would be like when deciding Banelings versus Lurkers. I mean if you've gone Speedling in the early game, you've gained map control. Suddenly, your opponent bursts out with a huge marine/marauder army. Are you going to go Hydras THEN Lurkers to counter this? No, you'll go banelings.

But I don't really feel all that strongly about it. I'm just not sure. Even the baneling trap thing I'm not sure about. I don't use baneling traps. I've never had to.

[Nicol Bolas]

Are you going to go Hydras THEN Lurkers to counter this? No, you'll go banelings.

Actually, I'd go for Roaches. Then again, I haven't won a ZvT in quite a while...

However, that does point out something very important. If you want Lurkers and Hydras to share the same Tier, then Lurkers can't come from them. They may as well be Tier 3 if they did.

[pure.Wasted]

Actually, I'd go for Roaches. Then again, I haven't won a ZvT in quite a while...

However, that does point out something very important. If you want Lurkers and Hydras to share the same Tier, then Lurkers can't come from them. They may as well be Tier 3 if they did.

It all depends on how Lurkers actually play. If they play like SC1 Lurkers, then you're right. But we don't really need SC1 Lurkers. If they play like SC2 Lurkers, then you might be right. But apparently we don't need SC2 Lurkers either. If they/Hydralisks have some new tricks up their sleeves, however, then that's not necessarily true at all. Do we need some Mystery Lurker X, or changes in the Hydralisk? I'm still just as inclined to say yes as I was in the past... but time will tell.