Medivac AI

[BnetGamer77]

I strongly feel you guys are missing a key point here. This seems in all aspects a good thing, unless you want the game tougher on your self...(in which case you like the game tougher, well - technically it still forces you to baby sit the unit if you plan to move Medivacs in a specific way)

If I read right, it sticks with your infantry, injured or no, while they attack - however, the part people are missing is if you click that Medivac(so that it is only that one Medivac you have selected) and tell it to move to another group of infantry or spot of your choosing that it will.

If you think about it, those who WANT it to do something specifically can, AND it also provides a counter balance for those that like to baby sit, allowing players to who wish to use the Medivacs in a more complex way.

Could I ask those with concerns to bring up examples where you would want your Medivacs to move in front or away from the current infantry group they are supervising?

And then ask your self if it's such a crime to manually click and order them to move if such an event occurs? Again, it's a win win in my eyes being those who want it easy just keep them by the troops, but those who want to maximize unit micro can still select and move the unit(s) where they want.

[Caliban113]

Could I ask those with concerns to bring up examples where you would want your Medivacs to move in front or away from the current infantry group they are supervising?

Well, there really aren't any - the point is, the UI should just not assume what the player wants to do - even for something as obvious as the Medevac's 'heal'. I'm all for automation in SC, and and can remember many-a-time screaming at my monitor when my medics sprinted ahead of my Marines towards certain death back in BW, but in the end, those mistakes were mine, not the computer's. While it's not everything in an RTS, proper unit control can determine a game, and in these instances, the game should go to the player who used his best, and used them in the most efficient way.

Besides, as I brought up in my earlier post, between the 'follow' command and the improved pathing, these really aren't mistakes we should be worried about making anymore.

.

[milo]

I don't think the game is assuming much at all. When you give a standard troop movement order, do you A-move, or just left click? Medivacs ONLY ignore ATTACK commands, and that only if there are 1) Damaged Infantry or 2) Infantry in combat in their range.

It's the exact same thing as a normal combat unit. You tell them to attack-move to a certain location; they meet the enemy before they reach that location. They stop and fight. The UI isn't assuming anything - you told them to attack, and that's what your units are doing.

[BnetGamer77]

@ Caliban113
Your counter point seems off though. The Medics in BW were broken, and the player had to be more micro proficient to counter it. The medics if they worked right should of been like the medivacs are now. And by broken I imply they could only heal, (and cast some other spells) - they couldn't attack, so there was no point for them to 'attack to position' and run past the units they needed to watch over to go and defend dirt or the enemy's front-line/base.

From what I've noted, for everything made easier and less micro needed to work - Blizzard added in a new spell, or trick a player has to do so that micro based players still hold the edge once they utilize all these elements.

[Caliban113]

The Medics in BW were broken, and the player had to be more micro proficient to counter it.

Well, I cant argue that it was intended or not, but one thing was true - The Medic did exactly what you told it to do, and the 'more micro proficient player' thing is the point I was trying to make. The techniques used to ensure Medics did what you wanted them to, were not that difficult then, and they are less difficult now. I'm not sure a mechanic like this is really necessary today

As for the 'A-click' argument - thats much different; attack-move' is exactly that - and the unit is doing exactly what you told it to do. However, as long as we're bringing up 'a-click' - I believe this type of thing really over-automates the game, and encourages 'a-clicking' type strategy - No one has to think through how they are going to use and organize their units anymore; they'll just draw a big-ol' box around them, and send em all...thataway....dont worry, they'll know what to do when they get there...

Again, I'm all for automation. - but there is a point where these games will become over-automated - automated to the point where many of the more subtle techniques of these games will get lost....again, even though 'Heal' seems like a no-brainer, its still something the player can easily decide on and control for himself.

[BnetGamer77]

Great point, but you can only go so far back into the stone age where you independently tell each unit to move here and attack this unit, to the point the human mind and ability to keep up will stagger behind.

SC2 is overly easier for a new player to use vs SC1, but as I said, it's more complex to the point to where those that believe the player with better micro should win, are still pleased; this is in part with all the new abilities each unit has and each has a new strength and weakness that players need to understand to fully micro them.

I think it's on topic to point out that those who could handle micro almost flawlessly in SC1 were a very small % vs the overall player base. If that is true, which I'm going to believe it is till we have some hard facts to go by, then wouldn't that be a flaw in the game that not enough players are capable of truly playing it to the limit?

So SC2 is open to a much broader player base, yet again, even though more are capable to reach that limit of near flawless micro, it's still enough to separate pros from novices.

[Hammy]

It's a bit different for the Medivac's case. It ignores attack commands, not move commands, because Medivacs don't have an attack. Or another way to look at it is: Heal is the Medivac's attack. Infantry in combat are its targets. When Medivacs hang around your troops, they're following your command and 'attacking' the only things it can.

Yeah I'm aware of that, actually I think "a" is the hotkey for heal on medivacs (which makes sense, since it's convienient to attack-move your marines at the same time as you heal-move your medivacs).
However, why in the world would the medivac hang out around the marines even if all of them are at full health shooting at buildings for example? That makes no sense. If there is nothing to heal, just follow your commands and move to the "heal-move" designated point. If there is stuff to heal, well heal it on the way.
The unit shouldn't assume it's going to need to heal marines if they are attacking something, it should just do what you tell it to do.

This isn't a dramatic change at all, but just a bit of a SC2 tendancy that I dislike.

@Bnetgamer: Actually I think this absolutely nothing to do with how "easy" the game becomes. It goes without saying that the game needs to have enough elements to make the difference between a good and bad player. When it comes to these little additions (like the medivac's AI), it goes without saying that it makes things easier for low level players, but since it makes things easier for ALL low level players, things even out. And it isn't because the medivacs will stick with marines that the newbie will be able to beat an experienced player in a game series.
What I dislike is simply the idea of units not doing what you tell them, and just assuming you wanted them to do something else because they think it's better. I think you should be the boss in an RTS game , not the AI.

[Nicol Bolas]

The unit shouldn't assume it's going to need to heal marines if they are attacking something, it should just do what you tell it to do.

But it is doing what you tell it to do. Auto-heal is on, so it's looking for things to heal. That's part of its AI now. Just like if an attack unit isn't on hold-position, it will look for things to attack.

The only difference is that you're not used to it. But it makes perfect sense as far as atomic operations for units is concerned. Attack units will look nearby for things to attack, even if those things are too far away for it to attack at the moment. Healing units will look nearby for things to heal, even if those things are too healthy to heal at the moment.

[BnetGamer77]

That makes no sense. If there is nothing to heal, just follow your commands and move to the "heal-move" designated point. If there is stuff to heal, well heal it on the way.

Makes perfect sense to me though,

If your army is firing at something, they are likely going to be attacked if they aren't being attacked already.

What's more, if your army is shooting at something, they are NOT moving forward, hence if the medivac moves forward, it's alone with no units around to heal if sh!t goes down, and even worse - it's undefended in that case scenario.

In the Extreme circumstance you have your main army split up, while one holds off an enemy attack while the other moves further into a base or to attack something else then you have to consider;

A) The group attacking enemy's needs to have the healing anyways, while likely the army advancing to do damage to buildings/SCVs/Drones/Probs wont be at threat to be attacked.

B) If the group that is split up attacks a building while the other group advances to fight an army, the medivacs will stay on the ones firing first (in this case the buildings) and your army fighting the enemy's troops will be helpless; however - if this is the case, you click the medivacs you want to move and force move them to the other group.

It all boils down to micro anyways people, there is NOTHING I see worth complaining. Medics in SC1 needed to be micro'd effectively, but with this mechanic, you STILL need to micro them well to keep them with the group you fear will be needing them.

It's working in all regards the same if not better then medics, and by same I' mean if you aren't paying attention, like in SC1 then you will end up hurting your self.

The feature is built for noobies; advanced players will learn to baby sit the unit like they did in SC1 - win/win from what I've seen.

-

[mr. peasant]

Yeah I'm aware of that, actually I think "a" is the hotkey for heal on medivacs (which makes sense, since it's convienient to attack-move your marines at the same time as you heal-move your medivacs).
However, why in the world would the medivac hang out around the marines even if all of them are at full health shooting at buildings for example? That makes no sense. If there is nothing to heal, just follow your commands and move to the "heal-move" designated point. If there is stuff to heal, well heal it on the way.
The unit shouldn't assume it's going to need to heal marines if they are attacking something, it should just do what you tell it to do.

This isn't a dramatic change at all, but just a bit of a SC2 tendancy that I dislike.

@Bnetgamer: Actually I think this absolutely nothing to do with how "easy" the game becomes. It goes without saying that the game needs to have enough elements to make the difference between a good and bad player. When it comes to these little additions (like the medivac's AI), it goes without saying that it makes things easier for low level players, but since it makes things easier for ALL low level players, things even out. And it isn't because the medivacs will stick with marines that the newbie will be able to beat an experienced player in a game series.
What I dislike is simply the idea of units not doing what you tell them, and just assuming you wanted them to do something else because they think it's better. I think you should be the boss in an RTS game , not the AI.

I think in this case, the AI is making a reasonable assumption of the player's intent. Ordering them to 'attack+move' alongside infantry suggests that you'd want them to move to that point as a group. If you want the computer to blindly follow your orders, you should also be against smart cast in all forms since the computer assumes you only want to cast one of said spell rather than spam it with all your units. This 'problem' carries more legitimacy than the Medic following your troops in that there are actually more situations where you would genuinely be wanting all your units to spam said spell.

Another example of the computer making a reasonable assumption is the Stalker's Blink. When used as a group, the entire group Blinks to the rough area you clicked (more or less maintaining its formation, if I'm not mistaken). If the AI interpreted your command literally, only one Stalker should be able to successfully Blink since that exact point you had clicked is now occupied by the lead Stalker. They shouldn't be allowed to Blink to the point next to that lead Stalker since that's not where you clicked in the first place! Except, it's a reasonable assumption that Blinking next to it is perfectly appropriate (even though this might accidentally put it in range of enemy fire/sight where the lead Stalker didn't).