Infestor spell re-work

[Aldrius]

Oh the "little" exception of EMP, oh phew...

Uh, well, okay, EMP isn't that great in TvZ anyway. Especially when your enemies' spellcasters are fast-moving burrowed things.

Oh, and putting a nuke in your face (not a spell, but its the same unit that has EMP and Snipe, so it can't be put aside). Oh phew again...

You have a 10 second warning to interrupt a nuke, and it costs 100/100 per cast. It seems a LITTLE strong right now, but it's also not easy to get. Getting the infestation pit is a lot more convenient than getting the ghost academy, building some ghosts, getting the nuke, getting cloak, etc. etc.

And about the excitement being lost, i dont know but it doesnt excites me to see my units being killed by ur units, rather than watch UR units being killed by UR own units, and you being able to do nothing. Now thats fun. You must be a very serious person...

I find it exciting to have to watch my infestors, unburrow them to cast their spells, then reburrow them to run away again. It's a lot more fun than just leaving the things lying around burrowed all the time. There needs to be a reason to have your infestors unburrowed, and with that speed upgrade there just wouldn't be if you could cast while burrowed.

[Nicol Bolas]

And anyway, allowing the Infestor to cast spells while burrowed would be UNBELIEVABLY ridiculous.

You could do it as an upgrade. Possibly Hive-tech.

It's odd. You lament the inability of Infestors to control Siege Tanks or Colossi (despite burrowed movement), yet the thing that would easily allow them to do so (burrowed spellcasting) is something you're against.

[Aldrius]

It's odd. You lament the inability of Infestors to control Siege Tanks or Colossi (despite burrowed movement)

I never lamented it. I was more lamenting the fact that people actually think that it's possible (and that it makes the unit overpowered somehow). The only way it'd be possible is if your opponent flat out ignores the infestors. Siege tanks just two-shot them and they'll do it before the infestor even starts casting it's spell.

Anyway, this is exactly why they WON'T let the Infestor cast spells while burrowed, it's spells would need to be massively weakened.

yet the thing that would easily allow them to do so (burrowed spellcasting) is something you're against.

I just don't like it. For the same reasons I don't like Lurkers burrow-moving. I like the dynamic of ONLY being able to move while burrowed or ONLY being able to attack while burrowed. It's interesting to me. It's more dynamic.

[SubterraneanArdor]

The point here is being missed.

The initial contention was that Blizzard could somehow be appreciably “more” creatively bankrupt within their own product by replicating their units thematically. I contested that point. Discussing mechanical similarities was irrelevant to that point.

The Infestor is an incarnation of disease. The Defiler is an incarnation of disease. The Infestor replaced the Defiler in that thematic role but it hasn’t really added a lot to that theme, and, as such, it is perfectly interchangeable with the Defiler conceptually. Again, this has nothing to do with the mechanics of its abilities, as I’ve pointed out and I have no idea why people keep harping on that irrelevancy. (And if that persists, I’ll leave them to the circular reasoning and move on.) Maelstrom’s effects are extremely similar to Fungal Bloom. Does that mean Dark Archons are thematically the same as Infestors? Obviously not. One is a literally slimy nexus of microrganismatic horror, the other is a glowing energy being. They don’t serve the same narrative purpose, even if they (arguably) have similar practical applications. The Queen represented the hive and fecundity aspects of the Zerg as well as the parallel between the race and eusocial insects. It didn’t represent pathogens -- Defilers did, just as Infestors do. The Queen did have some body horror theme, but that was still mostly the flavor in Defilers; mechanically, Blizzard couldn’t give Defilers more on that score, even if it would have been cool to have it. Somebody had to have Plague and Dark Swarm; more body-horrorish spells simply couldn’t fit in the unit mix. (And disease is the most traditional and original source of body-horror -- plenty of real-world diseases are a lot scarier than the body-snatching aliens that make up modern soft SF fare.)

High Templars recently received Feedback. Does this mean that High Templar are no longer shiny space wizards and are, in fact, glowing energy beings? Nope. This practical change, made for game mechanics reasons, doesn’t change the theme of High Templar one bit. Similarly, you could hand the Infestor every Ghost spell and it would still be the thematic cognate of the Defiler. All the obsession about the mechanics is bullshit that misses the point. Since the Infestor doesn’t have any lore or flavor or theme that really makes it a distinct and unique critter from the Defiler, Blizzard could easily slap a Defiler polygon model on the Infestor and it would make no thematic difference. It would be a marketing error, I’d agree, and it would foreclose the possibility of the Infestor getting lore and theme to truly separate the two critters, but they could do it. Blizzard is concentrating on mechanics, not thematic creativity, and said creativity isn’t flourishing. This is imperfect, but not necessarially bad; we still get to play planet-scourging bugs. But, again, there’s no reason to think that Blizzard would be severely retarding its creative process by recycling old unit skins and models.

And if you didn’t want to talk about theme, then the comment about “intellectual bankruptcy” that triggered this conversation was already off-topic and you can stop now.

[arthas]

You guys do realise that probably only 1 of 10 nukes actually deals any serious blow to the gameplay of your enemy? Honestly i saw loads of reps and saw dozens of nukes and ONLY one was a serious hit to the enemy when it took out 2 pylons with 5 photons.....I mean that's not even a 'serious' blow it's just some 10 secs to wait and land a nuke while you can do the same and clean these defences with several tanks....If you ask me nukes are much much worse and useless than in BW,and if some of you try to say that it cost less,no supply,faster calldown etc....I say what's the use if you can't deal enough damage to take a gateway or even most of the time reach it's target ??? Or maybe we should tell pro's to stop playing so good and allow nukes to fall onto their heads :?

In BW you can again stop nukes but if you fail to kill the ghost you know the nuke devastates you base ,,while now....well my buildings will survive and will have a detector by the time of the next comes in....

[Aldrius]

The initial contention was that Blizzard could somehow be appreciably “more” creatively bankrupt within their own product by replicating their units thematically. I contested that point. Discussing mechanical similarities was irrelevant to that point.

No it wasn't, because that's what nicol was talking about. He was talking about mechanical similarities.

All the obsession about the mechanics is bullshit that misses the point.

No it isn't.

Nicol was the one who made the point.

And if you didn’t want to talk about theme, then the comment about “intellectual bankruptcy” that triggered this conversation was already off-topic and you can stop now.

No it wasn't. The topic is about the Infestor, someone said "The Infestor sucks just replace it with the defiler already.' Nicol responded to the effect of 'Yeah, Blizzard should just say they can't come up with anything new.'

Hence, the discussion of 'intellectual bankruptcy' is very much on-topic.

Nope. This practical change, made for game mechanics reasons, doesn’t change the theme of High Templar one bit.

It might not, but if they'd give the High Templar, let's say... spawn infested marines, that'd definitely change the way the High Templar works. A unit is more than just it's flavour and it's gameplay. There's the part where the two meet in the middle.

[Nicol Bolas]

The initial contention was that Blizzard could somehow be appreciably “more” creatively bankrupt within their own product by replicating their units thematically. I contested that point. Discussing mechanical similarities was irrelevant to that point.

No; the initial contention was that replacing the Infestor (a unit not in SC1) with the Defiler (a unit in SC1) was declaring intellectual bankruptcy because it would be regressing the gameplay to what SC1 had rather than making a new and different game. Thus declaring that Blizzard couldn't come up with actually new ideas and thus was intellectually bankrupt.

Matters of "theme" were not part of the original issue. That's something you introduced for some reason.

The Infestor is an incarnation of disease. The Defiler is an incarnation of disease.

Wait; how is the Infestor an incarnation of disease? The lore for the Defiler was very clear that it grew a lot of germs and such on its body. The lore for the Infestor... doesn't actually exist yet. But there's nothing to suggest that it is spreading pathogens or anything. You call it a "One is a literally slimy nexus of microrganismatic horror" but there is no actual lore for the unit yet, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

Perhaps you should provide some evidence.

Again, this has nothing to do with the mechanics of its abilities, as I’ve pointed out and I have no idea why people keep harping on that irrelevancy.

Because the original commentary was about gameplay! It was you who introduced the concept of unit themes into this discussion.

Since the Infestor doesn’t have any lore or flavor or theme that really makes it a distinct and unique critter from the Defiler, Blizzard could easily slap a Defiler polygon model on the Infestor and it would make no thematic difference.

Ah, I think I understand your problem.

You seem to think that when Asfastasican said, "Oh for the love of pete, bring back the defiler already," that he was talking about the Defiler model. Far be it from me to speak for him, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Defiler's spells and abilities.. Especially since he followed this comment with, "I'm shocked that the Thor has found its place faster than the infester has!" This statement is referring to the Thor's role in the overall Terran army, which is a gameplay matter. It also suggests that he feels the Infestor doesn't have a gameplay role in the Zerg army.

This strongly suggests that, in context, he is talking about what the Defiler does in game and not its model or look or theme or anything insubstantial like that. He wants Dark Swarm, Consume, and Plague back.

While I think it would be unfathomably stupid to rename and reskin the current Infestor suite of abilities with the name and model "Defiler", this would be a far lesser crime than actually putting Dark Swarm, Consume, and Plague on the name and model called "Infestor."

[SoFool]

*reminded of the current mothership & face palm*