Terran - Planetary Fortress

[Norfindel]

I know that you lose the MULE. I already said that a few posts above, but losing minerals in the long term doesn't makes a 1500hp static defense a better idea. Bad ideas are bad, no matter how much do they cost.

Instead of doing that ridiculous thing, they could allow you to drop either MULEs, or a combat version of the MULE (also with timed life, obviously).

Obviously, if you take into account the minerals not gathered, any alternative would forcibly be either OP or not worth it. That's the price they payed when they inserted the macro mechanics in gameplay. Few things can compete with free minerals.

[Hammy]

The PF is a 1500 HP static defense. Nobody notices a problem there? Since when a static defense so hard to take down is good RTS design?

When I see a PF annihilate an army of ling/hydra with just a bit of SCV support I can't disagree with this. The same applies when I see how long it takes mutalisks to kill this thing, even after killing/chasing all of the SCVs (believe me I've been there, and this building has lost me a few games).
Granted I could have done some things better, but it's still pretty badass.

How to take an island expansion with a PF and some turrets? Back in BW there were always options, even including overlord suicide to drop 16cracklings. Now this isn't an option anymore :/
And wait 'till players start using the upgrades as intended... : ) Besides, the upgrades aren't only for the PF They work wonders on turrets (including the raven turrets) and bunks.

I'm not the type to shout imbalance, and actually I don't think it's a problem at all for now since I don't see many T use it. However, I do think it's a bit too good and expect to see a change at some point : ). I think it would be too bad to nerf the upgrades, since I'd like to see some diverse playstyles, which is why I think the flaw is in the PF.

Edit: I'm talking about TvZ btw. In TvP... well all it takes are void rays or immortals...

[Todie]

and in TvZ all it takes is a couple of corrupters?

... PF is a new type of defensive structure, dealing AoE damage and all that. i think big part of the perceived problem is that people still arnt so good at estimating the strength of the PF in any given salutation; just like when assaulting any defences, trying and failing is what can really hurt, cuz then youre typically losing more money worth of units than your opponent.

however, when ppl are more comfortable juding in what situations they can take the PF on, and in what the cant it wont be such a big deal. especial not considering the mentioned counters.

[HellishProphet]

Earlier today, on the livestream, Gifted had a full 2 team force vs his 1 PF(and about 20-25 SCVs) and like 30 units + medivacs. They focused fire on the fortress and lost. The PF went all the way down to 100 hp, with 25 SCVs and 900 minerals worth of repair - THATS ALOT OF DAMAGE TAKEN!

The PF won because these reasons:
Gifted had a fully saturated base of workers
Over abundance of minerals
He microed the PF on a large closly grouped group of 15+ Sentrys(2 shots killed half)

The other player could have done this:
Kill atleast 2 workers(this would have made it so the repair couldnt keep up with dmg)
Get immortals instead a large for of Sentrys n Stalkers
Micro clumped units

Considering it took Gifted the cost of TWO EXTA CCs to survive this, this match took the PF to the extremes


(sidenote: grand total of 91 kills on it by the end of the game)

Edit: Fixed, it was Gifted not KD :P

[Pandonetho]

Sentries aren't exactly good building killers.

[Gifted]

You must go air, or wait to mass a lot of ranged units, because he built one static defense. That isn't good design IMO, no matter how much does cost to the player.

I believe the counters aren't being correctly utilized. Protoss have [collossi] [Army + psi storm] [Army+Mothership Vortex][Army+Force Field][Air], Terran have [Seige Tanks][Marauder+Medivac][Thor+Army][Air], Zerg have [Army + Corruption][Army+infestor][Ultralisk][Air].

As you see PF being used more, you'll see the counters being explored more. At this time, the imbalance is not in the unit yet but the fact that the meta game isn't explored regarding this too often. All that a planetary fortress provides is the need for the opponent to do Teir 2 and sometimes 3, depending on what matches their strategy.

Using the same argument, if I went Ultralisk Zerg and you said "the armor/hp is too much, I can't take it out with hydra/zergling without losing my force" the answer is that the counter was incorrect. This game is about reacting to the strategy of your opponent.

The amount of HP and firepower you get for 150m 150g is ridiculous.

That's true, but you have to realize that the cost does involve the 400 minerals originally obtained. If you lose your "defense" you loose your "command center" as well. That's different than spine crawlers. The other aspect is that this changes the ratios it takes to repair the building. The below mentioned game where it was me, cost me about 950 minerals to obtain the defense that was achieved, not counting the countless SCVs which died and the full swarm of marine/medivac which lost about 1/2 to 2/3rds the force. That's the equivelent of 150 minerals, 150 gas, 900 minerals, that's about 12 spine crawlers which probably would have provided a solid defense of a likewise nature with that style of support.

Building an PF instead of an OC , can mean that you can lose up to 1k-3k minerals in the long term, and if that is not costly i don't know what is !

While the rest of your note is good Perfecttear, I want to remind people it's not a free 1k-3k minerals, you're only getting them faster. Remember, every MULE you use reduces the mineral you select by a full 1/6th and provides just slightly more pressure to expand if the game gets drawn out. This doesn't mean it's a bad ability as it's excellent, but I think it's important to remember the minerals aren't "free". ^_^

Earlier today, on the livestream, KD had a full 2 team force vs his 1 PF(and about 20-25 SCVs) and like 3 units. They focused fire on the fortress and lost. The PF went all the way down to 100 hp, with 25 SCVs and 900 minerals worth of repair - THATS ALOT OF DAMAGE TAKEN!

The PF won because these reasons:
KD had a fully saturated base of workers
Over abundance of minerals
He microed the PF on a large closly grouped group of 15+ Sentrys(2 shots killed half)

The other player could have done this:
Kill atleast 2 workers(this would have made it so the repair couldnt keep up with dmg)
Get immortals instead a large for of Sentrys n Stalkers
Micro clumped units

Considering it took KD the cost of TWO EXTA CCs to survive this, this match took the PF to the extremes


(sidenote: grand total of 91 kills on it by the end of the game)

That was me and you forgot the 30 or so marines/marauders and 6 medivacs there that took the hits that the SCVs would have taken. He would have easily won the match had be put force fields along the edge of my planetary fortress, I wouldn't be able to repair then. It was a case of "poor counter".

[Perfecttear]

What do you think if the Planetary fortress and the sensor tower would merge?
I actualy think it would work great , and it would put the sensor tower out of it's missery .

[Gifted]

I think Sensor tower in it's current form is fantastic. I enjoy plopping some to the ally base when I'm worried about drops and whatnot.

[phazonjunkie]

What do you think if the Planetary fortress and the sensor tower would merge?
I actualy think it would work great , and it would put the sensor tower out of it's missery .

I think you might be on to something.....

[HellishProphet]

That was me and you forgot the 30 or so marines/marauders and 6 medivacs there that took the hits that the SCVs would have taken. He would have easily won the match had be put force fields along the edge of my planetary fortress, I wouldn't be able to repair then. It was a case of "poor counter".

Sry, i thought it was KD. XD. My mistake. And honestly, i didnt notice all the extra units for all i saw was mass fire on the PF.


But there was so much he could have done that would have ended largely in his favor.

And I agree, its not that they are imbalanced, its just the face the meta-game hasn't reached them just yet. Only now are we seeing a good useful mad spread use of them. Obviously, now we are going to see the proper counters being used

Don't call something new imbalanced before you have tried something new on it.