Mothership or Arbiter?

[flak4321]

It doesn't work that way anymore. Mothership cloaking is passive, not activated just like the Arbiter.

It's MOBILE. It hasn't had to channel it's cloaking ability at any point during the beta.

Guys, if you're going to criticize something can you at least get the proper facts? Especially with the beta out now, where everything is up to date.

*Shrug* I know that she's not drastically slower than the Carrier. They can move together reasonably well.

If you read my whole post, you would see that I acknowledged a mobility comparison in response to Norfindel's comment, in mild contradiction to my vote reasoning. Please allow a clarification:

I prefer my cloaker with better than average mobility. The mothership is certainly mobile, just not quite enough for my taste. The SC1 Arbiter could easily keep up with a scout fighter (before upgrade, at least) and outrun carriers. But I suppose we se a physics axiom at work: the greater the mass, the more effort must be expended to move the mass. Consequently, her lack of high speed is understandable.

[Aldrius]

When did that happen? Interesting development though.

I think like a year ago. ^^;

[Norfindel]

I think my biggest problem with the Arbiter mk2 is that Warp-In is a hands down better version of recall than recall. Its like at the start of SC2's development they said "hey lets give gateways a cool version of recall and then we can give the mothership something new and awesome like Planet Cracker."

Three years of failure later and it seems like theve resigned to just putting recall back on because #$%@ it what else are they going to do.

Still, the Warpgate only works with units produced there, and only when producing the units. With Recall you can move a lot of already-produced units instantly, no matter if they were produced at the Gateway, Robotics, or Stargate. It's a very powerfull spell. The only similarity is that units can appear at a target spot.

[ArcherofAiur]

Still, the Warpgate only works with units produced there, and only when producing the units. With Recall you can move a lot of already-produced units instantly, no matter if they were produced at the Gateway, Robotics, or Stargate. It's a very powerfull spell. The only similarity is that units can appear at a target spot.

I said this in a recent debate over at BNET on this issue

There is already way too much mobility in Starcraft2 to the point where abilities are becoming redundant and racial diversity is begining to suffer. However when you try to talk about it you just get people saying "No there is [insert tiny difference]. Therefore there is no overlap!"


It really feels like one of the core tenets that made Starcraft so great has been forgetten: Concentrated Coolness

[Norfindel]

I said this in a recent debate over at BNET on this issue

The Protoss had always have mobility and Recall, so what's your point?

[ArcherofAiur]

The Protoss had always have mobility and Recall, so what's your point?

That there is too much mobility in Starcraft2 to the point where abilities are becoming redundant and racial diversity is begining to suffer.




Concentrated Coolness

[flak4321]

@Archer and Norfindel:

I agree with part of Archer's argument here, at least on the grounds that in any RTS, overlap of roles and races is pretty much inevitable. We must realize, each in our own way, that the diversity we seek will be largely in appearance and in minor nuances of unit to unit functionality. I cannot comment fully on the effects of mobility unitl I actually play SC2, but the mobility increases can be said to be blurring some of the differences, but not all.

Example of no blurr: An Ultralisk, seige tank and Colossus will each be used as heavy assault/seige engine type units, but just how that unit does it differs. The tank and colossus have range while the Ultra is "up close and personal." And the colossus and tank differ in that the colossus does not have to immobilize itself to bring its strongest attack to bear. Thus we have a coexistence of functional and racial overlap with elements of diversity.

Example of blurr: Marines/zerglings/zealots. The blurr here existed pre-SC2 to an extent w/ the overlap of the upgraded crackling vs stimpack vs Zealot leg enhancements. In SC2, with charge, blurr between stimpacked marines/infantry and a charged zealot is increased. Any blurr with zerglings is unchaged.

Example of a completely new wrinkle: Viking/Muta/Phoenix. Mutas are largely unchanged. There are many videos showing the Viking filling the roles of the old Goliath and Wraith (minus situations where cloak would have been handy, that goes to banshee). The Phoenix's anti-grav ability is another wrinkle. In this matchup of what appear to be the primary first-choice air units, we can see new diversity being introduced, i.e. new Concentrated Coolness

In effect, both of you are right and wrong, depending on the example.

I have to give Blizz some credit on how they bring this dynamic within the game. There is more diversity in Starcraft than any other RTS I have played, and SC2 looks equally so, so long as we miminimize comparisons between the two to those that are appropriate.

[ArcherofAiur]

@Archer:

I agree with your argument here, at least on the grounds that in any RTS, overlap of roles and races is pretty much inevitable. We must realize, each in our own way, that the diversity we seek will be largely in appearance and in minor nuances of unit to unit functionality.

@Archer and Norfindel:

Example: An Ultralisk, seige tank and Colossus will each be used as heavy assault/seige engine type units, but just how that unit does it differs. The tank and colossus have range while the Ultra is "up close and personal." And the colossus and tank differ in that the colossus does not have to immobilize itself to bring its strongest attack to bear. Thus we have a coexistence of functional and racial overlap with elements of diversity.

I have to give Blizz some credit on how they bring this within the game. There is more diversity in Starcraft than any other RTS I have played, and SC2 looks equally so, so long as we miminimize comparisons between the two to those that are appropriate.

As in most cases its a question of degree. I think that the degree of overlap between the mass recall and warp-in is far too much for Blizzards usual high standards of quality. This overlap was perfectly exemplfied in a recent BNET thread where a poster told how the mothership allowed for unique tactics like dropping in the enemies base. It was soon pointed out to that person that this was a warp-in tactic already.

[flak4321]

Without question. We could discuss this for hours, citing example after example, with varying degrees of overlap, and still not reach any goal. Overlap is inevitable. We as the players must find ways to make each instance unique in how we use or respond to them. Sure, mothership recall and warp-in overlap in function, but which is easier or more efficent to use and which can be used first? This would be a matter of battlefield circumstance and personal preference, no? Can you imagine a simultaneous use as some players have been using Nydus networks?

[ArcherofAiur]

Without question. We could discuss this for hours, citing example after example, with varying degrees of overlap, and still not reach any goal. Overlap is inevitable. We as the players must find ways to make each instance unique in how we use or respond to them. Sure, mothership recall and warp-in overlap in function, but which is easier or more efficent to use and which can be used first? This would be a matter of battlefield circumstance and personal preference, no? Can you imagine a simultaneous use as some players have been using Nydus networks?

Alternatively, Blizzard could push the envelope and further improve upon the racial and unit diverisity that made Starcraft so great. There is a reason the Mothership wasn't unvieled with Mass Recall.