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Thread: Zerg Needs Major Rework

  1. #1
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    Default Zerg Needs Major Rework

    From TL.NET someone said:

    The beta has been out for two weeks now, and after watching tons of livestream the 1st week and being able to play several games on my friendís account since last week, Iíve found that Protoss is horribly imbalanced. By imbalanced I donít mean that they have advantages over the other races in terms of winning games, but that Protoss is extremely more interesting to play as. As a BW Zerg player, I am extremely disappointed with the current state of Zerg, as the changes made to the race have all but destroyed every aspect of BW Zerg that I loved.

    The new units for Zerg are Queens, banelings, roaches, and overseers. I do not consider the infestor or corrupter/broodlord as new units as they are simply the defiler and devour/guardian in new skins. It should also be noted that lurkers and scourge have been removed, and that muta-micro is completely butchered. Although I just said the infestor was a defiler (as it is the Zergs ONLY spellcaster while the other races each have at least 2), it is really just a nerfed dark archon with some shitty summon spell( SPAWN INFESTED TERRANS IS THE STUPIDEST FUCKING SPELL IN THE GAME) instead of feedback and nerfed mind control and nerfed maelstorm (units still attack when affected).

    In BW what I love so much about the Zerg is how micro-intensive they are, and how every unit has an extremely large depth to it in terms of learning how to control it properly. Muta-micro is my favorite part about BW, I love the way that mutas give Zerg countless options in tactics and strategy, and are extremely dynamic in what purposes they can serve (either purely harass, defense, or just support). I loved the way a whole multitude of playstyles were not only available but totally viable (for instance PvZ you can play very aggressive with 5 hat hydra play or go very defensive with sunken/spore/lurkers). I love the way that defilers, although the most powerful spellcaster in the game, are also hardest to use but also the most versatile spellcaster ( the way swarm placement allows infinite options to the Zerg player to hold any choke or attack any base with proper control, not to mention the usefulness of plague). I love the way Lurkers allow even more options to the Zerg. They are arguably the best defensive unit in the game, but can also be coupled with other units (defiler and zerglings) to be extremely offensive as well.

    In SC2, Zerg have lost all these units (mutas might as well be completely different units as they function completely differently now and are basically useless as harass units, at least compared to BW mutas) and the options of play they provide. Currently, from my experience, Zerg play in SC2 is basically ďmake a bunch of roach/hydra/ling and hope its more than the other guy can kill.Ē Thereís absolutely no finesse to any of the Zerg units (unlike the way Terran have ghosts and reapers or protoss have stalkers/sentries). With the removal of the scourge, lurker, and dark swarm (or rather the complete removal of that entire role in the Zerg army), Zerg now have 0 ďdefensiveĒ units. A defensive style of play is extremely harder to pull off now, and really is just counter-intuitive. I guess mass nydus-worm (which is basically the only GOOD way to play Zerg right now) is a defensive style(although simultaneously an extremely offensive stlye), so maybe what I just said is stupid, but I feel itís still a very makeshift defensive style.

    Zerg late game options are a joke right now. Either get the best unit in the game or get buffed guardians that will probably die to 1 anti-air unit just like in SC1 but you donít even have scourge to try to defend them better (I will admit right now though that this is just my impression of broodlords as I have only used them once in a game that was already over and have rarely ever seen them used, which perhaps speaks of their usefulness already). In BW there was this beautiful dynamic (particularly in ZvT) where you finally get that 3rd gas and have the option of getting guardians (again never used), defilers, or ultras. Defilers were almost always the GOTO unit because swarm is just so fucking useful and dynamic (can be helpful in countless situations) and allowed for a completely new phase of the game to take place as you are using defilers to try to take a 4th and 5th gas to THEN get ultras. Not to mention the fact that upgrades donít really make sense any more. Unless you just get all 3 upgrades at once, you basically either get melee which only affects early game and very lategame (lings/ultas) or missiles which only affect the mid game (roach/hydra). Without the lurker (and defiler to make late-game hydralurk viable) you have no strong unit to transition to lategame except for the ultralisk, so you might as well JUST upgrade melee.

    IN SC2 there isnít a rush to hive, because you are only getting a hive for the sole reason of getting ultralisks (or I guess maybe upgrades for other units?). While rushing for hive being gone isnít exactly a bad thing (im not saying its bad just because its different), it does exist solely because theres no reason to get a hive until you have an economy to switch completely to ultalisks. This means that the entire zerg lategame can ONLY revolve around ultralisks. This completely sucks, as Zerg right now have the fewest options available to them.

    Ultimately I feel the Zerg race right now is really lame and not very fun at all. I think banelings are somewhat interesting, larva inject is sweet, but ultimately Zerg to me has just boiled down to ďmake a bunch of shit and a-move eventually and hope he cant kill it allĒ which I guess could describe SC1 to an extent, but there is just an absolute lack of finesse required to the race, and more importantly I feel there is just no depth at all in any of the units. SC2 Zerg is completely broken at the moment.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    To the OP, I completely agree. The Zerg needs some serious reworking. As you said, they should be about massing units, and hence their units should be cheaper and a bit more fragile. The tier 1 roach (with crazy armor and hp) and tier 2 hydra (with increased supply count) go completely counter to this.

    My suggestions...

    Infestor:

    Scrap all current spells.

    Add "toxic cloud" spell. This spells casts a ground based projectile which emits a toxic cloud. The cloud expands along the linear path of projectile and around its final resting place (a tear shaped pattern). The cloud consists of billions of tiny Zerg micro organisms which attack any foreign unit inside the cloud. The effects are growing damage over the longer time and growing slow rate against foreign units. Foreign units which spend too much time in the cloud will be completely immobilized. Lasts 30 seconds or until projectile is destroy + time to dissipate the cloud.

    Add "obscuring mist" spell. This spell casts a large puff of mist hiding all units, both allied and unallied, in the mist. All units in the mist,s, both allied and unallied, are invisible to the enemy. This means you can make enemy units disappear to enemy. When the enemy's units are invisible they cannot attack and do not issue warnings or other sounds/messages. They can be selected while invisible and moved, but they will not be able to attack or issue notification unless a detector is near.

    Add "consume". This spell allows the infestor to eat a unit to add energy.

    Allow infestor to cast spells while burrowed

    Roach:

    Allow the roach to heal at the same rate both above and below ground. Increase move speed. Reduce hit points, armor, and cost.

    Hydra:

    Keep at tier 2, but reduce the attack strength and lower by 1 its supply limit. Reduce the cost. Add speed upgrade option.

    Zergling:

    Increase the attack rate of adrenal gland upgrade. Increase speed upgrade.

    Burrow:

    Move burrow to tier one upgrade

    Remove move while burrowed from all units

    Mutalisk:

    Allow for fast response from commands, perhaps increase movement speed. Increase attack speed, perhaps lower attack damage.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    Been saying the same thing for months now myself. Zerg are so much more boring than all the other races, and bring very little new to the table. It's a shame the race with possibly the most potential for evolution shows such little signs of it.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    I like the creep tumor and the nydus network. Those are some good additions to the race imo. Having to upgrade your overlord to overseer for detection makes it also more challenging for the zerg. Also, when you kill a building, some broods are gonna spawn and attack you wich makes it harder to rush a zerg player (Or at least I wouldn't suggest trying to take down th epool first that's for sure). Tbh, the race isn't that bad atm. The only thing it needs are better spells for the infestor. I agree that infested terran is really a bad ability. I'd rather see the infest building to create infested unit back.

    I don't want SC1 muta micro or dark swarm back. Muta micro was terribly imba at lower levels. Dark swarm was also pretty imba against terrans and would be even worst in SC2.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    One thing I do like is the Overlord Excrete Creep Dynamic. There is so much potential to creep now and I hope Blizzard moves more into that direction.

    I totally agree the spawn infested terran is the suckiest spell in the game. Personally, id replace it with a "Harden Creep" ability.

    What if the infestor can cast "Harden Creep" as a channeling spell which traps all walking or rolling units in the creep and renders them immobile? An AOE ensnare but only works on creep? Of course with a balanced duration, energy cost and area.

    It would trap all land units except hovering ones and slow massive units. It would also prevent zerg units from burrowing/unburrowing but not slow them down and make ZvZ more interesting.

    What do you guys think? It would be great with the infestor move-while-burrowed ability. Imagine the horror of having an infestor suddenly popping out and hardening the creep around it as you try to attack or retreat your units.
    Last edited by don; 03-02-2010 at 12:08 PM.


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  6. #6

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    I enjoy playing zerg the most, so really I dont agree with most of this - but a few things could still be changed as long as they leave most of it this way.

    Favorite things-

    1. Nydus Worm - Holy shit this spell is so amazing ahhhhh
    2. Queen - Love it, but I think the HP heal thing should heal buildings alot more - I found this out when it took like forever to heal my lair after i attacked it down to 100 hp on mistake lol
    3. Creep - Everything about it feels very zerg like, how i spread it across the map and my games and that I always want to fight on it, I really love it.
    4. SC2 UI has really made zerg more fun to play than it was in sc1 for me - just being able to control the massive amounts of units make playing zerg much more fresh and fluent than its ever been.

    "reworked" I think not.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    I like playing Zerg, but I hate ZvZ currently. The part that annoys me the most is that it seems like everyone and their mother is playing Zerg, last 8 games I have played now have all been ZvZ. This is why I am going to switch to another race.

    I have tried all kinds of things to avoid just going mass roaches, but it all seems futile. Roaches pwn lings, so going lings is useless against them, since a couple roaches supported by a spine crawler is all it takes to keep your workers safe. By this point the enemy will have more roaches than you and can apply pressure. Mutas I have won with a couple of times, but I feel I was more lucky in these games. Spine crawlers do work well against Roaches, but I feel the Zerg really need an anti-armour unit. As it is, the only 'unit' they have that recieves a bonus against armoured foes is.. the Spine crawler.

    I was thinking maybe Banelings could fulfill this role as I see them used very rarely. The one time I did try to use them, I found them ineffective. I'm sure once massed they become good, but that can be said of most units. I've heard they're only pretty much useful against zealots currently. Marauders have so many hitpoints it takes a lot of banelings to take them down and if the terran is smart about it, his marines will be protected from the Banelings acidic attacks by a wall of beefy rauders.

    Zerg could definately use another *new* unit. Preferrably one that is anti-armour imo as then there would be a solid counter to Roaches.

    There's my unorganized rambling of a 2c.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    OMG! So many whiners! Either SC2 is too much alike the first game or it's too different. So tired of this :/

    And the only reason all the old zerg players don't like the new zerg is becaus mutas isn't as good as they were before.
    Last edited by limE; 03-02-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    I agree with the sentiment... to an extent. I think the Roach and Hydralisk need to be rethought a bit and the Lurker needs to be put back into the game. But other than that this post just seems... ill-informed.

    The Infestor is really nothing like the Defiler. Thematically, in that they're both harassment/support casters maybe. But their spells are really different. Fungal Growth is sort of similar to plague in a way. (A combination of plague and ensnare.) But other than that...? Not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by sysrpl View Post
    To the OP, I completely agree. The Zerg needs some serious reworking. As you said, they should be about massing units, and hence their units should be cheaper and a bit more fragile. The tier 1 roach (with crazy armor and hp) and tier 2 hydra (with increased supply count) go completely counter to this.
    The Roach is SUPPOSED to be a slightly atypical Zerg unit. It's SUPPOSED to be sturdy and hard to kill. Right now I find it a bit imbalanced, but Zerg kinda need them at the same time.

    Infestor:

    Scrap all current spells.
    Ew. No. All of it's spells are AWESOME right now. The Infestor is SUCH a fun unit to use.

    Add "toxic cloud" spell. This spells casts a ground based projectile which emits a toxic cloud. The cloud expands along the linear path of projectile and around its final resting place (a tear shaped pattern). The cloud consists of billions of tiny Zerg micro organisms which attack any foreign unit inside the cloud. The effects are growing damage over the longer time and growing slow rate against foreign units. Foreign units which spend too much time in the cloud will be completely immobilized. Lasts 30 seconds or until projectile is destroy + time to dissipate the cloud.
    So it's just... a really, really complicated and hard to use Fungal Growth? What is this bringing to the table that Fungal Growth is not?

    Add "obscuring mist" spell. This spell casts a large puff of mist hiding all units, both allied and unallied, in the mist. All units in the mist,s, both allied and unallied, are invisible to the enemy. This means you can make enemy units disappear to enemy. When the enemy's units are invisible they cannot attack and do not issue warnings or other sounds/messages. They can be selected while invisible and moved, but they will not be able to attack or issue notification unless a detector is near.
    ...burrow? Spore Cloud sounds better to me than this, and that was a good spell for the Overseer. So...

    Add "consume". This spell allows the infestor to eat a unit to add energy.
    Why? Neither of it's spells really seem like they'd be all that useful to me, and honestly the Infestor is a good hit and run unit. Run in, cast a bunch of spells, burrow away. Recover energy, do it all over again.

    Allow infestor to cast spells while burrowed
    Ugh, definitely not. That'd require SEVERELY nerfing the Infestor right now. Neural Parasite would be completely and prepostorously insane. The unit would lose a lot of it's excitement.

    Allow the roach to heal at the same rate both above and below ground. Increase move speed. Reduce hit points, armor, and cost.
    Except for the cost (75/25 is pretty cheap already), I agree with this. As long as it wasn't too drastic. I think 110 HP/1 armor could be good, but I'm not sure. The numbers are really hard to figure out.

    Keep at tier 2, but reduce the attack strength and lower by 1 its supply limit. Reduce the cost. Add speed upgrade option.
    Honestly I think it should kinda trade places with the baneling... but again, not sure.

    Increase the attack rate of adrenal gland upgrade. Increase speed upgrade.
    What would this even accomplish? Zerglings are fine.

    Move burrow to tier one upgrade

    Remove move while burrowed from all units
    The Infestor would be really boring without burrowed movement. Movement>Casting while burrowed.

    Allow for fast response from commands, perhaps increase movement speed. Increase attack speed, perhaps lower attack damage.
    Honestly, I don't know what this article is talking about. Unlimited selection makes Mutalisks REALLY easy to use in larger groups. They're really strong.


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Zerg Needs Major Rework

    Quote Originally Posted by limE View Post
    OMG! So many whiners! Either SC2 is too much alike the first game or it's too different. So tired of this :/

    And the only reason all the old zerg players don't like the new zerg is becaus mutas isn't as good as they were before.

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