Zerg Needs Major Rework

[Nicol Bolas]

Mmmmmm what about a Tier 1.5 air unit. That can attack both ground and air. Of course with balanced stats...

Its crazy, I know, because for Starcraft standards that its fuckin nuts, unbelievable, heresy, even retarded. And it will never ever happen. So forget about it.

It is those things because the suggestion itself is simply not reasonable. You may as well have said a Marine that does 40 damage per shot with the same rate of fire.

You simply cannot allow air units that early. Look at how much trouble Reapers can cause. Now multiply this by the complete inability to predict where they can enter the base, as well as the fact that the Zerg have no anti-air units yet. At least Zerglings can attack Reapers; they can't do squat against this thing.

In order for this unit to be balanced, it would have to have virtually no attack power or be so costly that it would be inefficient to build. What you have asked simply is not balanceable.

I would also add that you have removed Hydralisks while doing this. Will this Tier 1.5 flying unit that is somehow balanced at that Tier be able to do the damage lost by Hydralisks? I highly doubt you're going to get that kind of damage output for cost.

[KadajSouba]

Lol it was some sort of joke, with a little bit of true. My intention wasn't to "Create a new unit" as u understood, but to show my concern with the game, as you also understood, but not that clearly.

As you said, too much problems so early with a unit like this. Whats the solution???? Create counter to this with the other races: units, defenses, spells, mechanics. But as I said at other thread, that would require almost a complete redesign of the game. Something that wont happen now. Im completely aware of this, because Blizzard used the same formula keeping almost all the ingredients. But they had the opportunity, to create something new.

So, as i said, a "silly" change like that one, is imposible in this dimension. You are right. And the example u mentioned is also correct. But unfortunately, its imposible because of the SC2 formula its almost the same as SC1 formula (for the purpose of this topic: ground units first, air units later), not because a unit like that one its imposible to balance.

Now forget what i said about the unit, i dont want to cause more noise than the one that already is around here.

[SubterraneanArdor]

Uh, it's VERY MUCH supported by the game because every single zerg evolution has worked that way so far.

By that logic, the stat upgrades buyable in the evolution chamber, being also evolutions and beneficial mutations, should cause units to change their attributes dramatically. This does not happen.

Is not. Mechanically, if your basic units have something over your evolved units (i.e. Hydralisks can attack air, Lurkers cannot.) then grouping Hydralisks in with your army will still be viable. Or NOT upgrading your Hydralisks when you have the opportunity with still be viable at least.

The point isn’t to make unit mixes, the point is to get detection. By your logic, the Overseer should lose its supply granting attribute as well. It adds nothing to the game if Zerg players are forced to completely replace an Overlord because they made an Overseer even by your logic since Overlords, unlike Hydras and Lurkers, are not necessarially army components. Your example does not apply.

I'm not talking about in-world, I'm talking about in-game. This is how every Zerg mutation has worked so far.

Then your argument goes from little merit to zero merit since preexisting game motifs do not magically limit subsequent game motifs. That is arbitrary and pointless.

But anyway, the Overseer is not a 'super-Overlord' it's a completely different unit. It should work like a completely different unit.

Having detection is already “completely different.” Again, subjective. You can’t support your “should” here with a single objective fact and you already went out of your way to discount theme. There is only what is mechanically justified.

But overlord speed needs to require lair to be honest.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I specifically said it should be t2. I don’t know what you read. I apologize, but you lost me.

Everything in the game should be simple and straight-forward to use. That's the way the game should work.

That is not how any Blizzard RTS has ever worked, your “should” notwithstanding. I had huge groups of friends swear them off because of what they termed unecessary complexity.

That could be part of the "Queen Evolution" upgrade that'd be at the Lair and Hive. I'm not really sure why you want to throw everything in the Evolution Chamber.

I mentioned two effects that could go into the Evolution Chamber. That’s hardly everything. The Lair and Hive have a good number of buttons to push already. In any event, it literally makes no thematic difference where the buttons are; the Queen upgrade could just as well go on the Queen.

Uh... so what exactly could the Infestor use more than spawn infested terrans? And please, please don't suggest something needlessly complicated with a labyrinthine explanation.

*shrug* I see no reason to suggest anything at all. And given what you think of as “simple” in a RTS, we likely have ridiculously different definitions of “needlessly complicated.” :-)

I don't think it's costs would need to be adjusted all that much for siege capabilities to be honest.

All attributes must be factored into cost.

People can question the dubious flavour of infested terrans, or dislike the art or whatever, but the Infestor is a really fun and powerful unit in-game. (If you actually USE it and use it well.) It honestly doesn't need fixing.

I never doubted the power of the Infestor. You’re preaching to the choir. In fact, I doubt the Infestor will survive beta without a potent nerf, though I make no claim here that it needs or deserves it. People complaining about the Infestor’s utility aren’t merely failing to use it -- they’re failing to read its on-paper stats.

If I were going to claim the Infestor-naysayers had an ulterior motive, I’d say that they are simply pining for Dark Swarm cheese and are making an attack on the Infestor in the hopes that Zerg will have Dark Swarm restored to the faction. I haven’t seen Infestor abilities criticized negatively by this group, only its lack of Dark Swarm

Corruptors don't overlap with Mutalisks. Mutalisks are generalists; Corruptors are specialists.

No, they aren’t. Corrupters are aa units that have a siege effect. That’s a pretty general spread. We aren’t going to agree on whether or not they overlap based on the definition of “general” because you and I don’t seem to use the term “general” to mean the same thing. There are tons of things I wouldn’t use Mutas for. If, despite that long list you’d still insist Mutas are “generalists,” we should immediately agree to disagree and move on because I have no idea how you’re using “general.”

"Siege" suggests that you're only using the ability to break someone's defenses and kill them.

I don’t use the term in this way. I don’t know anyone who does -- perhaps your definition is an artifact of RTS gaming. I use it more for its real-world definition: the control of an enemy’s static defensive position. As a result, economic sanctions on a city can be considered a siege tactic in the right context. I know exactly what the Corruptor ability does. It’s simply not what I would want to buy in an aa unit. I seek utility in the field for an aa unit. It would be nice if you didn’t assume I’m too stupid to understand that it can be used to disrupt a base.

[Nicol Bolas]

Corrupters are aa units that have a siege effect. That’s a pretty general spread.

No, it isn't. If the enemy has no air units, the Corruptor's AtA attack is useless. Whereas there is always something a Mutalisk can shoot at (whether it would be a good idea to use them there or not, Mutalisks can clearly attack them). The enemy dictates when Corruptors are to be used by the composition of their army.

If, despite that long list you’d still insist Mutas are “generalists,” we should immediately agree to disagree and move on because I have no idea how you’re using “general."

Generalists are units that have general utility. They can be massed to gain greater effect, and they typically do not have direct hard counters. This divides them from specialists: units that have a clear and specific focus and position in battle. They do one thing, or a small variety of things, and that is all.

If your definition of generalist requires that the unit not have "tons of things I wouldn’t use" it for, then no unit qualifies. I wouldn't take Hydralisks against Colossi with Range or Psi Storm or a Siege line. I wouldn't take Roaches against Marauders. I wouldn't take Zerglings against MMM.

Every unit has things it is not good at dealing with. But some are more generally useful than others.

[mr. peasant]

By that logic, the stat upgrades buyable in the evolution chamber, being also evolutions and beneficial mutations, should cause units to change their attributes dramatically. This does not happen.

No, since as you rightfully pointed out, thore are upgrades. All upgrades only alter the specific stat they're upgrading. The Overlord/Overseer conversion is different as it's creating a completely different unit with different stats, function and most importantly, name. This distinction is important as it thus allows the designers to develop the Overseer as they so wish. Similarities with the Overlord are not essential but rather a product of balance. That the Overseer retains its supply granting attribute is a result of a need rather than want. They can give the Overseer more of the Overlord's features but they certainly don't have to. If they have or want to give other uses to the unit, they can and probably should.

[Aldrius]

By that logic, the stat upgrades buyable in the evolution chamber, being also evolutions and beneficial mutations, should cause units to change their attributes dramatically. This does not happen.

No, because those are upgrades. Every race has them. Mutations are different than upgrades. Mutations are taking one unit, and changing it into a more advanced unit.

The point isn’t to make unit mixes, the point is to get detection. By your logic, the Overseer should lose its supply granting attribute as well. It adds nothing to the game if Zerg players are forced to completely replace an Overlord because they made an Overseer even by your logic since Overlords, unlike Hydras and Lurkers, are not necessarially army components. Your example does not apply.

No, they should not lose supply because that's not how the game works. The game should never let a player intentionally kill off his own supply. It's just really bad game design.

Transportation is not nearly so necessary as supply is. Transportation is useful, but the Zerg have a completely separate transportation mechanic which is more intuitive for their race anyway.

Then your argument goes from little merit to zero merit since preexisting game motifs do not magically limit subsequent game motifs. That is arbitrary and pointless.

That's the exact OPPOSITE of arbitrary. Changing things with no rhyme or reason is arbitrary. Following existing trends is not arbitrary.

Having detection is already “completely different.” Again, subjective. You can’t support your “should” here with a single objective fact and you already went out of your way to discount theme. There is only what is mechanically justified.

It IS mechanically justified. The Lurker is completely different from the Hydralisk, the Baneling is completely different from the Zergling, they're like a wholly different unit. The same thing should apply to the Overlord/Overseer. If they want to be at all consistent with how zerg units evolve into other zerg units.

That is not how any Blizzard RTS has ever worked, your “should” notwithstanding. I had huge groups of friends swear them off because of what they termed unecessary complexity.

No unit in a Blizzard RTS has every had 4 different symbiotic abilities (That all do like 3 different things) that work in unison like that. Even the destroyer didn't have that. It had 3. And two of them did essentially the same thing.

*shrug* I see no reason to suggest anything at all. And given what you think of as “simple” in a RTS, we likely have ridiculously different definitions of “needlessly complicated.” :-)

Uh, I guess so. Personally anything that involves 3 different factors working in unison to get the same effect that an already existing spell provides in a much more efficient way is what I'd call needlessly complicated.

All attributes must be factored into cost.

Never said they didn't, but a spellcaster with three spells is a spellcaster with three spells. One of those spells working in a siege capacity (especially if it's a hive-upgrade) isn't going to require a dramatic increase in cost.

I never doubted the power of the Infestor.

I was addressing Hamshank.

[SCpollo]

... What? So a simple Viking+Banshee push can take us out? And God forbid a Protoss goes Phoenix + Void Ray at us.

Corruptors are a crucial element of dealing with various eventualities. Tier 3 is a long way for the Zerg

hydras+mutas+banes would work relatively fine against those combos, and the void ray is mainly a building buster, what is the point of tier 3, only an ultra?

What good is that? They will be killed because they have no defense against mass Vikings or Void Rays. Because you moved Corruptors to Tier 3.

blord would be a perfect siege (break defenses) unit to fill the gap at t2.5, currently left by the lurker

When it couldn't possibly get worse, you move the only offensive Zerg spellcaster to a Tier that no Zerg player can ever possibly reach.

currently there is no t3 to speak of and this would be about equal to all the other spelllcasts in the game, and if no zerg can reach T3 in the beta you are playing right now, then perhaps the t3 should be removed all together

[Triceron]

Asking for new units for the sake of this being a new game is nothing more than an excuse. Period.

Everything has to have a purpose to them. This game rides on a very fine balance and has intentional gaps in them to force players to be aware of their strengths and weakenesses.

I would only believe Zerg lack a strong punch to counter mass units late game. Terrans and Protoss get the benefit of having fast production that competes with Zerg, and Zerg has simply fallen behind in having a niche where they really excel at. It's not that the Zerg can't out-produce, but that other races can mass produce units that are potentially more potent than that of Zerg's units. Basically Zerg's advantage comes from being able to expand and resource faster than their opponents, but they still miss out on having proper support abilities and units to keep the main bulk of their forces alive.

Support abilities would really help them out in this situation, something like the proposed Overseer Spore Cloud (LOS blocker) ability or AoE abilities in the form of the Infestor's explosive disease ability or hell, even Lurkers. These are things that can easily be patched in eventually. The big kicker is the lack of Dark Swarm, which in the past was Zerg's way of easily countering things like Mass Carriers, Terran infantry pushes and such.

[Nicol Bolas]

hydras+mutas+banes would work relatively fine against those combos

I'm not quite sure what Banelings would do for me against Void Rays or Viking+Banshees. And Hydra+Muta is way too gas heavy. Either way, you're playing defensively. He's got a bunch of units that you have to go out of your way to kill. And you're stuck in your base, because you can't afford to attack with your very expensive Hydralisks and Mutalisks or else he kills your base. And if he tech switches out of it, you lose. Imagine what happens if Viking+Banshee gets Hellion support double-pumped from a Factory. Your Hydralisks go away, followed swiftly by your base.

the void ray is mainly a building buster

The Void Ray, like all units, is exactly and only what you can make use of them for.

Also, last time I checked, if your Hatchery/Lair/Hive is killed, you can't mine. So destroying buildings is a big problem anyway.

blord would be a perfect siege (break defenses) unit to fill the gap at t2.5

First of all, there is no "gap at t2.5". Secondly, they'll simply be murdered because the Zerg don't have enough anti-air at that point to make use of them; Vikings and Void Rays will make swift work of them. Third, you'll have to nerf BLs to the point where they're little better than Guardians: no Broodlings, shorter range, less armor, fewer Hp, etc.

if no zerg can reach T3 in the beta you are playing right now

Plenty of Zergs are reaching Tier 3. My point is that if you take away Infestors and Corruptors, they most assuredly will not.

[SCpollo]

I'm not quite sure what Banelings would do for me against Void Rays or Viking+Banshees. And Hydra+Muta is way too gas heavy.

the banes were for taking out vikings, if they moved down, so you could just punch the other units out of the air, and how are mutas+hydras too gas heavy compared to banshees+vikings? that doesnt make sense. however i dont have the beta so i wouldnt know enough about the unit strat at this point so i will concede this point to you

First of all, there is no "gap at t2.5". Secondly, they'll simply be murdered because the Zerg don't have enough anti-air at that point to make use of them; Vikings and Void Rays will make swift work of them. Third, you'll have to nerf BLs to the point where they're little better than Guardians: no Broodlings, shorter range, less armor, fewer Hp, etc.

the siege gap currently left by the lurker, i was merely placing it at 2.5 because that would make the most sense, and your assuming that the terran/protoss player will have the perfect counters every round, that you wouldnt put a changeling in their base to see whats going on, and that its what you are going to have to do, Blords are simply an option there for siege that zerg may need

Plenty of Zergs are reaching Tier 3. My point is that if you take away Infestors and Corruptors, they most assuredly will not.

perhaps but then you are left with few options at t3 zerg, which there should be more of, and if infestors were given stronger abilities (like infest buildings) then it would make more sense to put them at t3
Change: zerg needed a couple new mechanics and perhaps a new unit
roaches should be good against light units (which they are made for fighting) and banelings against armor+buildings, although this maybe the case already feel free to correct me.