Zerg Needs Major Rework

[SCpollo]

I agree with the upgrade for banelings from pool
hydra to tier 1, give it a T2 + against armor
roach should be moved to tier 2, it would introduce more strat, should i tech fast to roaches to rape what i know is gonnna be some infantry comming through? or mass up some lings, banes n hydrass for a quicker counter attack? this would also makem less op against all the earlier game units.
Move corruptor to tier 3 (u dont need AA that badly so soon)
Blord tier 2
infestors T3, get infest buildings ability back (from protoss building, lings with psi blades! )
T3 upgrade, gives lings wings: ability to cliff hop, imagine just straight up overwheming people in their base!

[Nicol Bolas]

hydra to tier 1

Because what the Zerg in SC2 really need is more stuff from SC1.

Where does this stuff come from? Here Blizzard is trying their best to make the Zerg significantly different from SC1, and all you're doing is trying to turn them into something we've been playing for 11 years already.

roach should be moved to tier 2

Where it will be utterly useless. Because by then, the Terrans will have double-Factory + Reactor'd at us and built enough Hellions to incinerate every unit we have (because every single one at Tier 1 is Light and massable). If we're lucky, we may get a couple of Roaches out before we take critical damage.

The Roach serves a very important purpose at Tier 1. A purpose that Hydralisks cannot serve there. Not Hydralisks in any form that we know them.

Move corruptor to tier 3 (u dont need AA that badly so soon)

... What? So a simple Viking+Banshee push can take us out? And God forbid a Protoss goes Phoenix + Void Ray at us.

Corruptors are a crucial element of dealing with various eventualities. Tier 3 is a long way for the Zerg, made even longer by the weakness at Tier 1 you're engineering.

Blord tier 2

What good is that? They will be killed because they have no defense against mass Vikings or Void Rays. Because you moved Corruptors to Tier 3.

infestors T3

When it couldn't possibly get worse, you move the only offensive Zerg spellcaster to a Tier that no Zerg player can ever possibly reach.

What exactly is a Zerg player supposed to do in your Tier 2? Mass Hydralisks? These get destroyed by Colossi/Hellions. Roaches might be able to stop Hellions, but then what do you do with the Banshees kill your Roaches? Mutalisks might be able to stop Colossi, but what about the Sentries/Phoenixes that will be with them? And both Roaches and Mutalisks cost gas, thus making your Hydralisk army that much weaker.

There is nothing functional about the Tier 2 you're designing.

[Asfastasican]

The OP is just narrowed minded and is just sad about Muta stacking being removed. Of course, he complains about the Infestor, which is probably the most useless unit in the game, so He makes a good point there.

The fact that your creep generation goes up expontentially alongside your apm and micro is one of the many facets of the new sc2 Zerg that this guy has failed to realize. Once Blizzard makes a worthy Zerg caster that makes sense, and also adds a little something extra to Zerg for losing Lurkers, all will be well.

And yes, Nydus Worms are very iffy at this point, but we're still only 2 weeks into beta. Don't worry about what some TL drone goes off and cries about.

[Aldrius]

Of course, he complains about the Infestor, which is probably the most useless unit in the game, so He makes a good point there.

Yeah, who cares about summoning armies of units, snares, AoE damage or mind control...

The fact that your creep generation goes up expontentially alongside your apm and micro is one of the many facets of the new sc2 Zerg that this guy has failed to realize.

What are you even talking about? Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder if anyone who's complained about the infestor has actually used it.

I suck with the darn thing and even I think it's incredibly useful.

Because what the Zerg in SC2 really need is more stuff from SC1.

Well, let's be fair here. It's not like the tier 2 Hydralisk is all that dramatically different than the SC1 Hydralisk... it's a lot stronger. But otherwise it's still the uber generalist unit the Zerg use to kill... well um... everything.

A tier 2 roach would just be silly, though. I still don't get why the Baneling can't be tier 2... if the Baneling Nest evolved from the Spawning Pool, and it evolved fairly quickly, it'd work out pretty well IMO.

[RamiZ]

Of course, he complains about the Infestor, which is probably the most useless unit in the game, so He makes a good point there.

I fucking lol how some people that played 2-3 games of SC2 or don't even have Beta key come and complain about some stuff. If you really did play SC2 and used Infestors, and after all that, you found them useless, I think that you need to work on your strategy and micro, since I can't see how someone that knows how to use infestors would call them useless...

Ask OverSky, #1 in his Platinum Division are they useless. He builds them almost every game vs. Protoss.

[SubterraneanArdor]

Keep in mind, mechanical and graphical issues with air-to-air melee have already been handled in a Blizzard game: see Warcraft III, Gargoyles and Hippogryphs. The Corruptor would make an excellent melee unit against either air or ground -- however, given tentacle length, I would still give them some range.

Nicol Bolas asked why corruptors need to be melee. My answer is they don’t -- I just like the tentacle effects. Others may have other reasons for the idea. He also suggested that they have no gameplay problems. I disagree.

Corruptors’ anti-massive status is simply stupid. Battlecruisers are not a threat (Mutas/Hydras kill them fine), and while Carriers and Motherships are a problem for Zerg, a specialized unit for such rare, late-game units is simply foolish -- and again, Mutas can work there as well. (Digression: Motherships replicating Arbiters is tactically dubious, inelegant, and unfun -- bring back the Arbiter or do something new; end digression.) I am far more troubled by lighter air units -- vikings, banshees, and (above-all) Phoenix. (I miss the Devourer a jillion times more than the Lurker; there is no replacement for AoE slow/damage/debuff that they provide.)

The Corruptor’s “cloud” ability (from WC3) seems redundant to me with the existence of the Brood Lord. And it’s boring. And it’s mechanically perverse, given that Corruptors only hit air. (Corsairs only hit air and had an anti-ground effect -- but the latter was so powerful that the lack of a ground attack was more of a nerf than anything else.)

Blizzard seemed intent on removing air-targeted AoE damage from the game -- I cannot believe this was coincidence -- so I will not suggest its restoration. Instead, I would suggest that the corruptor become an anti-air unit with army support capabilities:

• Corruption. This is a debuff added from the Corruptor’s attacks; it affects all targets in a small AoE around the attack target. Units in the area have their damage reduced slightly by the Corruptor’s spores. These spores are cumulative. If a unit has enough spores, its movement speed is slightly reduced. Ground units can be hit with spores and targeted with a Corruptor’s attack, but they take no damage from the Corruptor’s attack.

• Ravage. This is an autocast spell, triggering when the Corruptor attacks; it can be manually cast and its autocast can be disabled. The Corruptor’s attacks now hit ground and air -- and they do splash damage to ground and bonus damage to air. Each of the Corruptor’s attacks cost energy. Thematically, the Corruptor causes its spores to become far more deadly by coordinating them with psionic attacks on their targets -- telekinetic damage, mental assaults, and so on.

• Parasitic Boon. This is an autocast spell, triggering when friendly units are taking damage in the Corruptor’s AoE; it can be manually cast and its autocast can be disabled. When activated, the Corruptor gives friendly units in its AoE regeneration. This constantly drains the Corruptor’s energy. The more HP healed by this effect, the greater the energy drain. Needless to say, this will slurp up Corruptor energy supplies quickly. Thematically, the spores leave their targets, flush with stolen energy and materials, and restore the friendly units with said resources.

• Spore Harvest. Again, autocastable. This causes the Corruptor to absorb its spores back into itself, feeding off the materials they have leeched from its targets, granting it energy. This ability is meant to feed Ravage and Parasitic Boon. The idea is neither of those spells can work very long, and they certainly can’t work for very long if they’re both on -- Corrupters would hit zero energy in less than 5 seconds of combat. The downside to this spell is peels spores from the target, reducing the efficacy of the Corruptors basic, non-energy-draining attack.

If these abilities seem bizarre to you, note that the Destroyer from WC3 had a similar level of complexity -- it’s not completely unprecedented, and it definitely adds a lot of interesting micro and build strategies, as well as a spiffy support unit. (I am jealous that Protoss got Sentries and Phoenix -- two awesome support units -- especially the Phoenix, with a great anti-ground spell that justifies building it even when you aren’t too worried about air). These changes make Corruptors incredibly flexible units and their numbers would have to be nerfed with great fury, but this could be a really fun unit to have. (Personally, I think the Sentry provides more flexibility than the wackiness I suggest here.)

Corruptors should not mutate into Brood Lords. This makes no mechanical sense. A specialized aa unit should not be the basis for a specialized atg unit. Morph the BL from larvae or mutalisks. Actually, it would be nifty if you could morph from either, with the mutalisk morph being cheaper.

[SubterraneanArdor]

• Re: Mutas: I am against anything which makes micro deliberately harder. I despise the unit action delay as it is, especially since bnet is lag-heavy. Games which rely on dexterity should not penalize dexterity -- this is obscenely bad design. That being said, I am not a fan of making Mutas a ubiquitous unit. I would balance them stat-wise, not with bad AI or deliberately-poor user interface. As it stands, they seem fine.

• But as for people pissing and moaning because they miss Muta stacking: I personally think they should explore new frontiers in sexual self-gratification using sharp kitchen utensils and aqua regia.

• The Infestor’s freeze-in-place mechanic will be heralded as broken, imo. Maelstrom was overstrong in BW imo as well (and was absolutely ruinous in air maps) -- but this was in a game with obscenities like dweb, so few noticed. A freeze-in-place DoT is incredible. It’s Ensnare on crack. Fungal is useful in so many situations my head hurts. You can lock someone’s choke with their own units. You can hit-and-run with ranged units. Worker harass, isolate enemy spellcasters, catch fleeing troops. People who can’t use this spell and claim that Plague was awesome are a shade away from trolling.

• Dark Swarm was over-strong in SC1 -- there was no artistry to it. You spammed it and neutered Terran. It’s not like Marines and Vultures could just choose to whip out knives. Terrans had the same situation with Irradiate. It was a brutal set of screwover spells, not an elegant arrangement of tactical assets. Both needed to go.

• Roaches are being overused now -- and zerglings and banelings underutilized. I think burrow should be dropped back to t1 and roach regen split into two upgrades, one of which hits at Hive, or roach regen pushed all the way up to Hive. Burrow at t1 allows for incredibly diverse Zerg tactics and map control, none of which was imbalanced in SC1 or seems like it would be imbalanced in SC2. The main problem with t1 Burrow is Roaches, so deal with nerfing Roach upgrades directly.

• Overseer transport should be allowed -- it allows Zerg to more flexibly deal with newly-found cloaked threats. Overseer morph shouldn’t punish the Zerg. You should get all the old Overlord functions, plus new ones.

• I am amazed that there are people here that are seriously arguing for buffs to Hydralisks. That is just . . . wow. Since reasons for said buffs were not given, I will simply note that there is no reason to do so, with all the restraint I can muster.

• Creep tumor depends on creep drop and vice-versa -- drop seems to give the Zerg the opportunity to use the tumor. The problem is Zerg players in beta are being unimaginative (in my limited experience -- ymmv) and not using creep advance in this way. Creep tumors act like spider mines -- a burrowed unit that can give you some sight of the map. Requiring micro to spawn lots of them seems like a possible balance to the map control they might grant a good player.

• I prefer the Defiler skin and appearance to the Infestor. Just throwing that out there.

• I don’t see the point of Infestors creating Infested Marines at all. Does Zerg need a summon spell? If so, make the summoned unit suck less. If not, why bother? If Infested Terrans are part of the game that Blizzard wants in Zerg, let the Zerg simply make Infested Terrans and stop screwing around. Zerg could “call in” an Infested Terran building much like a MULE drop. Again, that’s assuming Zerg need to have that. And I do not like the idea of Infestors affecting buildings unless the unit is retooled to make that sort of thing its focus. If you want a siege unit, make it a siege unit -- but I would hate for it to become a siege unit.

• Queen Transfusion should have a greater effect on buildings -- perhaps grant buildings bonus regeneration for some time and stack with repeated castings. Further, Queens should be given the option of mutating into tougher versions. Yes, I know this concept was toyed with and scrapped, but a t1 queen has little place on the battlefield for much of the game, which makes transfusion a terribly obnoxious spell to try to cast. Upgrades could increase its range (making it a long-ranged melee unit -- we’ve seen this in WC III with Huntresses), making the micro a bit easier. Upgrades should definately increase HP/armor. I would leave damage output at its current, low rate.

• Actually, it would be interesting if Zerg had the option of heavily investing in its queen (a mutation that increases its food cost, boost stats, gives new, aggressive spells), creating more options in t1 -- ling/queen, roach/ling, bane/roach, etc. While this is interesting, I don’t think Zerg needs it at all.

• In addition, to make their macro less painful, especially for non-pro players, Queens could have a t2 mutation that allows them to cast a spell on a hatchery that drains energy at a constant rate but increases larval production while it is active. Spawn Larvae cannot be cast on a building under this effect. (Alternatively, this mechanic could replace the current mechanics of spawn larvae.) While it is in operation, the targeted Hatchery cannot be affected by another copy of this effect and it is given a graphical effect. This does not change the actual practical output of this macro-effect -- the energy gained and the larvae gained are the same over time -- but may make things easier for less-skilled players. (The Queen could have both this new spell and the old one, both of which are mutually exclusive on a Hatchery, giving players flexibility on this score.)

• Overlord transport is still useful when dealing with simple ledge drops -- a Nydus can be a waste of resources or be too big and unwieldily for a narrow ledge. Overlord transport is also useful with a Nydus attack since a set of dropped ground forces can provide cover for a Nydus worm emergence process.

[Aldrius]

• Overseer transport should be allowed -- it allows Zerg to more flexibly deal with newly-found cloaked threats. Overseer morph shouldn’t punish the Zerg. You should get all the old Overlord functions, plus new ones.

No. It should punish the Zerg. That's how Zerg mutations work. When you mutate a Zerg unit you're trading something, you're not upgrading something.

For the zergling-baneling, you're gaining a ton of AoE power, but you lose the unit in question. For the SC1 mutations you're trading a generalist unit for a more specialized unit.

For the Overlord -> Overseer you're trading a utility unit for a spellcaster. Giving the Overseer all of the Overlord's utility would defeat the whole purpose.

• Overlord transport is still useful when dealing with simple ledge drops -- a Nydus can be a waste of resources or be too big and unwieldily for a narrow ledge. Overlord transport is also useful with a Nydus attack since a set of dropped ground forces can provide cover for a Nydus worm emergence process.

Eh... it's not worth the 200/200 and production time it takes.

If these abilities seem bizarre to you, note that the Destroyer from WC3 had a similar level of complexity

WC3 is a very different game. And even then, the Destroyer wasn't THAT complicated. You had different ways of getting mana (drain it from an ally, devour enemy spells), but once it had it, the Destroyer worked pretty much the same way.

Corruptor needs a different ability, but I think it needs something nice and simple more than anything else.

• Queen Transfusion should have a greater effect on buildings -- perhaps grant buildings bonus regeneration for some time and stack with repeated castings.

Oh, I agree with this. Just flat out replace the ability with one that increases regeneration for a time. It'd be more useful on smaller units, it'd be more useful in general actually. And I think it'd suit the Zerg better.

Further, Queens should be given the option of mutating into tougher versions. Yes, I know this concept was toyed with and scrapped, but a t1 queen has little place on the battlefield for much of the game, which makes transfusion a terribly obnoxious spell to try to cast. Upgrades could increase its range (making it a long-ranged melee unit -- we’ve seen this in WC III with Huntresses), making the micro a bit easier. Upgrades should definately increase HP/armor. I would leave damage output at its current, low rate.

I agree with this to an extent. I don't think they should bring back the old queen MUTATION. Merely give her a tier 2 and 3 upgrade which improves her stats and maybe her abilities or something. Right now she's way too vulnerable at later tiers.

• Roaches are being overused now -- and zerglings and banelings underutilized. I think burrow should be dropped back to t1 and roach regen split into two upgrades, one of which hits at Hive, or roach regen pushed all the way up to Hive.

Roaches have way too many upgrades already. (3!!) I think they just need to majorly rework this unit... but they're going to need to change a lot of stuff when they do, which is why we haven't seen it touched yet.

I don’t see the point of Infestors creating Infested Marines at all. Does Zerg need a summon spell? If so, make the summoned unit suck less. If not, why bother?

What? It's a very useful spell. The Infested Terrans versatility means they can't be allowed to be that much stronger than they are. 4 Infestors with full energy is the equivalent of having 32 infested marines ANYWHERE you want just about. (With burrow-move and all)

That's really strong and really versatile.

And I do not like the idea of Infestors affecting buildings unless the unit is retooled to make that sort of thing its focus. If you want a siege unit, make it a siege unit -- but I would hate for it to become a siege unit.

I don't understand why. Why can't just one of the tools in it's repertoire make it a siege unit? Heck, if it's that powerful, make it a Hive-requiring upgrade.

[Nicol Bolas]

Corruptors’ anti-massive status is simply stupid. Battlecruisers are not a threat (Mutas/Hydras kill them fine), and while Carriers and Motherships are a problem for Zerg, a specialized unit for such rare, late-game units is simply foolish -- and again, Mutas can work there as well.

Corruptors are not "anti-massive". They get a damage bonus vs. Massive, but that's not the same thing. It simply allows them to more effectively take on BCs, Colossi, and such than they would otherwise. Also, Hydra are only useful at dealing with BCs if you have them, instead of say going for Brood Lords or something else and leaving air defense to Corruptors.

Corruptors are good at dealing with most air units of any kind.

The Corruptor’s “cloud” ability (from WC3) seems redundant to me with the existence of the Brood Lord.

Which are Tier 3, very expensive, and Corruptors are a prerequisite for them. Having Corruption as a Tier 2 ability is good, and having it on a flying unit is even better.

And it’s boring. And it’s mechanically perverse, given that Corruptors only hit air.

Boring? Shutting down static defenses to allow your Mutalisks to have free reign is boring now? Shutting down production buildings, thus speed-bumping and delaying your opponent's tech/production is boring? You have a very wide idea of what constitutes boring.

As for "mechanically perverse" the whole point of the ability is to make Corruptors useful against things that are on the ground, without giving them a direct attack. This is also why BLs come from Corruptors instead of Mutalisks (well, one reason why): it allows you to make use of them against ground targets.

Eh... it's not worth the 200/200 and production time it takes.

That much is certain. However, I still want Overlord transport in the game. I just want it to be more legitimately accessible. Paying 250/250 (transport is useless without speed) is just not a reasonable thing to have. I would pay 200/200 to give Overlords speed & transport.

[SubterraneanArdor]

Re: Overlord/Overseer Transport

No. It should punish the Zerg. That's how Zerg mutations work.

No, that’s how they can work. You are not arguing from the Holy Canon of Blizzard (Peace Be Onto It), but from an arbitrary asthetic not wholly supported by the game. Your way is less good than my way, mechanically, and does not have a thematic justification. Now, I’m not arguing from Holy Canon either, and I admit this is a significantly subjective deal. We are talking about a world background that is less pinned-down than some trading card games.

For the Overlord -> Overseer you're trading a utility unit for a spellcaster. Giving the Overseer all of the Overlord's utility would defeat the whole purpose.

No it wouldn’t. The point of the Overseer was detection. Mission accomplished. The point wasn’t to give Overlords a Lantern Ring and supah powahz. I paid for detection; either cheapen the cost or don’t take away the other upgrades.

Eh... it's not worth the 200/200 and production time it takes.

Then drop the cost. That seemed like that should happen, anyway. The costs and speed of Overlord upgrades needs to be reduced, especially since the delay to Lair is simply unacceptable. Y’know what? I’d actually move these upgrades to the Evolution Chamber and peg them to t2, then combine speed/transport, and give Overlords a cheap sight upgrade as well. (Mostly for shits and giggles -- Creep Tumors are already heinously good map control.)

Corruptor needs a different ability, but I think it needs something nice and simple more than anything else.

I don’t. I think nice and simple belongs in t1, not in a t3 unit that already has a strong overlap with Mutas.

<agrees with Queens being buffable and Transfusion improvement>

Yay, yippie-skippie as Baby Miss Piggy used to say.

I’d go whole hog and throw an energy (total and regen) upgrade for queens in the Evo Chamber and peg that goodness to t2.

What? It's a very useful spell. The Infested Terrans versatility means they can't be allowed to be that much stronger than they are. 4 Infestors with full energy is the equivalent of having 32 infested marines ANYWHERE you want just about. (With burrow-move and all) That's really strong and really versatile.

You’re absolutely right -- but you missed the point. I know it can be strong. My point is that Zerg doesn’t seem to need it, and I’d prefer to give Zerg more thematic stuff that flows with its needs. It just sort of sticks out there. It doesn’t keep me up at night, mind.

I don't understand why. Why can't just one of the tools in it's repertoire make it a siege unit? Heck, if it's that powerful, make it a Hive-requiring upgrade.

Because I don’t want its costs balanced due to its siege abilities. I want to buy a siege unit for sieging and non-siege units for the field. I’ve never liked RTS’s that merged the concepts into one unit -- I’ve always found the balance to be off.

Boring? Shutting down static defenses to allow your Mutalisks to have free reign is boring now? Shutting down production buildings, thus speed-bumping and delaying your opponent's tech/production is boring? You have a very wide idea of what constitutes boring.

Yes I do. I also don’t care for stamp collecting or bird watching. Your point?

I simply don’t agree with the logic that an AA unit should be given siege-type ground support unless it also has a ground attack. No ground plus siege ability isn’t flexibility -- that’s a nerf. And I don’t think that Corruptors, given their stats, need a nerf. Let them either hit ground or let them do something better than siege.