Some PvZ Stress Tests from Gradius and Grunt

[GRUNT]

Micro changes who wins and who loses. The most your info will tell you is what happens among unskilled players or those unwilling to micro.

In a real midgame battle, the Zealots and Roaches won't be alone - there'll be all kinds of nasties on the field and more often than not, these units just become frontline fodder while you micro other things like sniping high-priority targets or casting Psi-Storm.

Sure you could micro your Zealots and Roaches if you wanted to, but stuff dies so fast that you're simply not rewarded for doing so as much as if you were to micro other elements in your army.

Also, you sometimes have to jump back to your base to macro even during a fight. I'd say that "you'd be surprised how often two armies a-moving into each other comes up" but then, you probably already know.

Believe me - it's useful to know how a given group of units will react when left to their own devices at any point in time. Secretly, I think you see the value in this but you're too into roleplaying Nicol Bolas . There's also the fact that at our skill level, most of us probably aren't capable of micro that'll make more of a difference than the quantity and composition of our forces. At least in a larger fight and not just a small skirmish early-midgame where all you have to deal with is 4 Zealots, 2 Stalkers and a Sentry or something similar.

[Nicol Bolas]

Sure you could micro your Zealots and Roaches if you wanted to, but stuff dies so fast that you're simply not rewarded for doing so as much as if you were to micro other elements in your army.

Roaches are ranged, even with their short range. They still benefit from basic focus-fire micro. Giving them a good set of targets to attack (using shift-click to make them attack in sequence) does wonders for their ability to take down targets. And since they do lots of damage, but have a low rate of fire, focus fire is even more important with them.

I'd say that "you'd be surprised how often two armies a-moving into each other comes up" but then, you probably already know.

Not if you actually micro the units. And Roaches don't die particularly fast (which is kinda their point.)

[GRUNT]

Roaches are ranged, even with their short range. They still benefit from basic focus-fire micro. Giving them a good set of targets to attack (using shift-click to make them attack in sequence) does wonders for their ability to take down targets. And since they do lots of damage, but have a low rate of fire, focus fire is even more important with them.



Not if you actually micro the units. And Roaches don't die particularly fast (which is kinda their point.)

Now you're just arguing for the sake of it . I'm sure you've seen replays from the top SC2 beta players at the moment, even they rely on a-move and only focus fire to snipe priority targets. When an army of Roaches, Zerglings and Hydralisks clash with Zealots, Immortals, Stalkers, and Sentries, you'd be very hard pressed to find a game where the Zealots and Roaches DON'T only a-move into each other and the focus-firing is left to the other units.

[Nicol Bolas]

I'm sure you've seen replays from the top SC2 beta players at the moment, even they rely on a-move and only focus fire to snipe priority targets.

That's because they're macrobots. They think in terms of attacking opponents with their bases, rather than with their units.

Basic focus fire takes out enemies faster. You lose fewer units when you do it. It's a net gain.

[GRUNT]

That's because they're macrobots. They think in terms of attacking opponents with their bases, rather than with their units.

Basic focus fire takes out enemies faster. You lose fewer units when you do it. It's a net gain.

The strange thing is, a lot of these players are War3 players, so you'd think it'd be hard for them to break out of the mentality of microing their army.

It's easy to dismiss them and their skill as being attributed purely to their amazing mechanical skill, but I honestly believe that they (top War3 and foreign BW players alike) are giving this game a red hot go and that the conclusion is that macro wins in many situations.

There's absolutely no denying that micro and focus-firing helps in battle. In fact, this happens even in the lategame. You will always benefit from doing those things. The question is: benefit by how much? The larger the battle, the less micro can potentially matter and it could indeed be better to focus elsewhere.

[Islandsnake]

You can macro in this game pretty easily while you micro I feel - And focus firing dose help, but I find most of the time "dancing" your units is better or splitting them up then trying to shift click everything


So far I love zealot on zealot fights, I usally end up with like no deaths on my side haha

[Nicol Bolas]

The larger the battle, the less micro can potentially matter and it could indeed be better to focus elsewhere.

Actually, that's quite the opposite. In large battles, minor advantages can cascade quickly into major ones. Let's say you have a large number of Roaches vs. a large number of Zealots. And let's say that without focus-fire micro, this battle would be a draw. That is, with no micro, they'd kill each other off at relatively even rates.

It takes 10 Roach shots to kill a Zealot. While it takes 13 Zealot hits to kill a Roach. Zealots attack a bit faster than Roaches. So lets say that for every Roach attack, there are 1.5 Zealot attacks.

No more than 3 Zealots can attack any one Roach if they are clumped together. This is the nature of melee units. Yet approximately 7 Roaches are able to fire on any one Zealot; this is the innate advantage of range.

If only 3 Zealots are able to attack a Roach, then they can only kill that Roach in 3 Roach attacks (13/1.5/3). Whereas 7 focus-fired Roaches can kill a Zealot in 2 attacks.

That is why focus fire is important. If you have two forces that, with perfect micro, would end up in a draw, the battle is decided based on who gets a numerical advantage. The sooner you get an advantage, the more that advantage will tell.

The advantage of ranged units is more units dealing damage. Once you start to thin out the herd, micro isn't important anymore. If you can quickly pick off some of theirs while some of your wounded are still dealing damage, you'll gain a numerical advantage. That advantage only increases with time. So if you have two even unmicroed forces, applying some Roach micro will give you a victory. Plus, if you have uneven forces, if the Zealots are greater, some Roach micro can turn defeat into victory, or at least a more costly victory for your opponent.

[GRUNT]

Oh, what I mean is that in a big fight, you'd only be focus-firing with a portion of your army - a large portion of the two armies will still just be a-moving into each other. For example, in a midgame fight as a Protoss player, you'd probably only be casting Psi Storms or controlling your Colossi and making sure they're focusing on Hydralisks, but your Zealots and other frontline troops will just be left to do their own thing.

[Hammy]

And besides, in a roach vs X battle, when the numbers start getting higher you need to focus fire with seperate groups because of range issues. That makes it even more of a hassle.
I don't know if you're playing the game, but you make it sound so simple to set up a focus fire queue while microing position and macroing.
I'll focus fire frequently, but definitely not in all battles, since sometimes you'll end up making your units waste time walking around.
In the end I'd say that positionning (setting up the right concave, having a good spread etc...) is much more important than focus fire.

Of course, if it's that simple, once you've got perfect positionning, all of your bases are producing, your worker count is perfect and your tech transition is going smoothly, well then you can use that extra APM (the extra clicks beyond 300APM that everyone's got and has been looking for something to do...) to set up a focus fire queue.

[Alzarath]

Oh no. The Protoss have an advantage for, like 4 minutes. The four minutes during which almost nothing happens.

The same 4 minutes where you ONLY have macro? Where Chrono Boost is a macro mechanic?