Some PvZ Stress Tests from Gradius and Grunt

[GRUNT]

That's true. We did try kiting in one of our tests (can't remember whether it was hydras or roaches), but they actually did worse than when they just stood there.

That's true, but I think that my micro could also be a factor in how poorly the Hydras performed in that particular test :[. I do get a bit of delay which makes patrol-move difficult for me to do . A lot of the time, my Hydras were just moving and not shooting .

That said, Hydras have such a fast rate of attack that you don't seem to get a lot out of them when patrol-moving even in the hands of a skilled player. It just seems that against Chargelots, you're better off holding your ground and doing as much damage as you can.

I did a few more PvZ tests this morning. Unfortunately, the server shutdown so I have no screenshots . I'll add them later if the replay file saved correctly (though looking at my folder, it doesn't seem to have done so )


These tests were done with a friend of Islandsnake's .

12 Unupgraded Zeals vs 12 Unupgraded Roaches
Roaches win, obviously . Just wanted to test for the purposes of the next test...


12 Zeals with +1 attack upgrade vs 12 Unupgraded Roaches
Roaches STILL barely won, if memory serves. And this was without micro, only attack-moving. Looks like Zeals really need Charge to take on Roaches.


12 Zeals with Charge and +1 ground attack upgrade vs 12 Hydralisks with +1 Carapace
Zeals will win, to my surprise. 4 or 5 survived this particular test. I guess this means that early game against Protoss, when getting Roaches and transitioning into Hydras, you ought to go for that +1 Ground Missile attack upgrade before Carapace. The upgrade affects both Roaches and Hydras, so it suits such a transition very well. And as the earlier test indicated, +1 attack for Hydras really seems to make more of a difference than the Carapace.

This is because Zealots are a Hydra's main threat until Colossi or Psi Storm comes into play. And once Colossi are built, it doesn't matter because they're going to two-shot Hydras regardless of Carapace upgrades .

EDIT: Sorry I forgot that in my first batch of tests, the Zealots didn't have the +1 Ground Attack upgrade. I'm going to need to try 12 Chargelots vs 12 Hydras with +1 Carapace. However, I suspect that +1 ground missile upgrade for Zerg is still going to be the way to go.


1 Archon with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 3 unupgraded Mutalisks
Archon wins.


2 Archons with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 8 unupgraded Mutalisks
Mutalisks win with 4 stiill alive. I even attacked with my Mutas all clumped up, but the Archon's AoE seems (just from my impressions in this test) to be really pitiful. :[ Although Archons can maybe beat Mutalisks for cost (this test did have the Zerg army costing more), I don't think they're necessarily a cost-effective counter.


1 Sentry with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 1 unupgraded Mutalisk
Even without Guardian Shield, the Sentry will win, but only just.


8 Sentries with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 12 unupgraded Mutalisks
This may sound a little crazy, but I saw a thread on Teamliquid where someone said something about 8 Sentries with Guardian Shield being able to take down 12 Mutalisks, and so we did this test. 8 Sentries do NOT take down 12 Mutalisks even if Guardian shield is up and even if you focus-fire. 8 Sentries do not even seem to be able to down 10 Mutalisks, so I don't think they're a very cost-effective counter.

Perhaps if it was a mass of Sentries AND Stalkers, but the Server shutdown before we could try such a combination .

[RamiZ]

RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

I know, I love it. Just if you included Charge, why didn't you include ability alike? Roaches with Burrow would win vs Zealots. That is the point. And Charge actually has cooldown so you still can kite them pretty well if you are good enough. Creep also helps a lot!

Zeals will win, to my surprise. 4 or 5 survived this particular test. I guess this means that early game against Protoss, when getting Roaches and transitioning into Hydras, you ought to go for that +1 Ground Missile attack upgrade before Carapace. The upgrade affects both Roaches and Hydras, so it suits such a transition very well. And as the earlier test indicated, +1 attack for Hydras really seems to make more of a difference than the Carapace.

Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

This may sound a little crazy, but I saw a thread on Teamliquid where someone said something about 8 Sentries with Guardian Shield being able to take down 12 Mutalisks, and so we did this test. 8 Sentries do NOT take down 12 Mutalisks even if Guardian shield is up and even if you focus-fire. 8 Sentries do not even seem to be able to down 10 Mutalisks, so I don't think they're a very cost-effective counter.

Perhaps if it was a mass of Sentries AND Stalkers, but the Server shutdown before we could try such a combination .

Well yeah, Sentries counter Mutalisks cause of Guardian Shield, not cause of their damage. They are not really direct counter, but help your units to take less damage and counter Mutas.

[GRUNT]

I know, I love it. Just if you included Charge, why didn't you include ability alike? Roaches with Burrow would win vs Zealots. That is the point. And Charge actually has cooldown so you still can kite them pretty well if you are good enough. Creep also helps a lot!

I think that without stuff involving micro, it gives a much better idea of how the units interact with each other. :]

Here's a point to illustrate: imagine I'm doing a Brood War stress test, and I do 3 Marines vs 1 Lurker. We've all seen how with tremendous micro skill, 3 Marines (you could probably even do it with 1 or 2 Marines) can beat the Lurker as long as you have some detection.

Now I know that burrow micro with Roaches is done even at lower skill levels and is a LOT easier to do than Marine micro vs Lurkers, but I hope you see where I'm coming from .

Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

Like I edited into my post, I forgot the Zeals had +1 attack as opposed to my earlier test where they had only Charge, and not both .

[Rake]

Thanks from all us non-betas.

Any more unit combinations will be appreciated.

[milo]

One thing to consider here, should Chronoboost keep its function through beta, is that in a normal game, Protoss can always be ahead in upgrades.

[RamiZ]

One thing to consider here, should Chronoboost keep its function through beta, is that in a normal game, Protoss can always be ahead in upgrades.

Not just upgrades, but because Protoss don't need to upgrade or build anything for Chrono Booster, only need to wait 25 sec for it, he will be ahead not just in upgrades, but in worker and unit production too...

[Nicol Bolas]

Not just upgrades, but because Protoss don't need to upgrade or build anything for Chrono Booster, only need to wait 25 sec for it, he will be ahead not just in upgrades, but in worker and unit production too...

A Queen can easily out-strip Chrono Boost in everything except upgrades.

[RamiZ]

A Queen can easily out-strip Chrono Boost in everything except upgrades.

Yes, but not at start. That is my point, you get it almost at start, while you wait for Spawning pool, then for Queen to be built.

[Aldrius]

Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

Zealots have two attacks.

So it's (8+1) x 2 - 1. So the zealot will still deal one extra point of damage.

[Nicol Bolas]

I think that without stuff involving micro, it gives a much better idea of how the units interact with each other.

Micro changes who wins and who loses. The most your info will tell you is what happens among unskilled players or those unwilling to micro.

Zealots have two attacks.

So it's (8+1) x 2 - 1. So the zealot will still deal one extra point of damage.

Each attack is counted separately, so armor affects each attack separately. So it is a wash.

Yes, but not at start. That is my point, you get it almost at start, while you wait for Spawning pool, then for Queen to be built.

Oh no. The Protoss have an advantage for, like 4 minutes. The four minutes during which almost nothing happens.