How much have fans helped against SC2 ?

[ArcherofAiur]

Im not saying there essential for the plot. But its still feasible to have ansilary races. Like say we have a mission where Jim stumbles upon a planet with Ewoks and must enlist their help to defeat the Dark Templar.

[Santrega]

You just described the Zerg and Protoss as they currently stand. All you're doing is saying that these "new races" should be more of that.

The Protoss are not "more" of anything relative to any race, just as the Zerg are not "more" of anything relative to any race. They are different directions, not merely turning knobs up or down.

With the insect-like race, they'd have no abilities. That is different than any race.

The Xel'naga race would use mostly abilities, and very little regular attacks, even on its early units, and thats unlike any race.

Sorry, but simply saying they are the same, doesn't make them the same. When one of the races use only abilities, or has no abilities, Please then tell me one race is the same as the ones I suggested. Thanks.

[Kimera757]

Im not saying there essential for the plot. But its still feasible to have ansilary races. Like say we have a mission where Jim stumbles upon a planet with Ewoks and must enlist their help to defeat the Dark Templar.

That is something I'd expect in StarCraft II. However, that's not enough to be its own race in multiplayer, or support a campaign by itself.

(Please don't use Ewoks as an example.)

[ArcherofAiur]

But Ewoks are awesome :P

[Nicol Bolas]

lol right, they are completly different spells. Nicol are you serious?

They are different. Blizzard's spell decreases how long the Probe spends sitting next to the mineral patch. Your version increases Probe movement speed, which speeds up both minerals and gas. That's a pretty substantial difference.

The kind of difference one might expect if two people independently came up with similar ideas.

I would also point out that, of the 3 macro mechanics, it's the one Blizzard is least happy with. So even if you were the originator of the idea, and you had real evidence showing that Blizzard took your idea, it's still the one most likely to change.

We changed Starcraft.

If you click your heels together and say it three times, it might come true.

But its still feasible to have ansilary races. Like say we have a mission where Jim stumbles upon a planet with Ewoks and must enlist their help to defeat the Dark Templar.

That's a far cry from saying that the game should have more than 3 races. It's well established that the single player can and will have unique units in it. Both for your side and against it.

With the insect-like race, they'd have no abilities. That is different than any race.

So they'll have, what, 3 units?

Look at the Zerg now and see how much trouble they're having coming up with interesting units that don't involve active abilities. Now you want to have 2 such races. Only I guess the other will be more boring, since they'll just be move and shoot?

It's a difference created only by removing an element, not by adding anything. It's merely a specialization of the Zerg, not a new race: the Zerg without spellcasters and burrow.

The Protoss are not "Terrans without X, Y, and Z mechanics." The Zerg are not "Protoss without A, B, and C mechanics." Each race is unique, not derivative of any other.

Sorry, but simply saying they are the same, doesn't make them the same.

They're still just the Protoss and the Zerg with a few missing mechanics.

That's the problem with coming up with a new race; you have to come up with something that is unique, not merely an old race only moreso or with a few mechanics removed. I'm not saying it's impossible; it simply isn't worth the effort.

[ArcherofAiur]

Nicol give it up. I dont know what your on but if you think that two AoE energy spells cast from protoss buildings to increase probe mining at the expense of other micro applications are substantially different I see no other way to convince you.


Sometimes I think you just like to argue with people for the sake of arguing. In this thread alone youve switched your story from "the Blizz mechanics were made before the community mechanics" to " its different cause its on a different building" to " you just guessed at the mechanics" to " the mechanics are different because yours affects speed."

[ManjiSanji]

I think fan comments have a sort of double-edged sword. I think our comments have clearly helped with some units, but hindered others, too.

We were all mostly pissed at the Tempest in the beginning, but now most people want it back. The Infestor change is fantastic, and I think a lot of art changes made have been specifically due to fan comments. However, we've also got the goofy 2 Dark Templar change, when it would have been better to just stick with one.

Ultimately, I think they listen to fans as another point of reference, because I think they know they aren't perfect, but at the same time, they have to step back and say, "Ok, these comments are just fans being whiny, and we should do what we want here."

I think using feedback from fans is the way to make a better game, but they also have to know when to just tune us out on some things.

I wish the Tempest was one of them.

[DemolitionSquid]

Nicol give it up. I dont know what your on but if you think that two AoE energy spells cast from protoss buildings to increase probe mining at the expense of other micro applications are substantially different I see no other way to convince you. Luckily I dont really need to convince you cause the facts stand for themselves.

Nicol is right. A Nexus-casted spell to increase Probe movement speed is substantially different than a Dark Pylon-casted spell that increases their mineral mining rate. The Nexus-casted spell would:
a) allow the Probes to gather both minerals and gas faster
b) allow faster early scouting
c) allow faster escape from a base raid
d) not be as spam-able due to its restriction to a 400 mineral building with only one purpose (create Probes and serve as resource return point) instead of the 150 mineral Dark Pylon with multiple other uses (Psi, power, other spells)

The two spells would be used in entirely different ways and at different times.

[ArcherofAiur]

Nicol is right. A Nexus-casted spell to increase Probe movement speed is substantially different than a Dark Pylon-casted spell that increases their mineral mining rate. The Nexus-casted spell would:
a) allow the Probes to gather both minerals and gas faster

Actually this was a flaw with the speed boosting mechainic. The limiting factor for gas harvesting is refinery processing time not probe speed. So a speed bonus would not boost gas.

d) not be as spam-able due to its restriction to a 400 mineral building with only one purpose (create Probes and serve as resource return point) instead of the 150 mineral Dark Pylon with multiple other uses (Psi, power, other spells)

Actually it could be spamable if you made the cost small. I thought we didnt want it to be totally spamable. Look if you want me to argue that they are 100% the same Im not going to do that. What I am arguing is that the concepts behind them (AoE energy spells cast from protoss buildings to increase probe mining at the expense of other micro applications) were novel and unique ideas. These ideas were all presented to Blizzard (even sent to Dustins desk) and manifest in macro mechanics they developed.

[Norfindel]

I think that fan opinions are one of the many things that weights in Blizzard decisions. Take for example the Soul Hunter. It had negative opinions from the community since day 0, but it wasn't just scrapped right away. They continued to test the unit, and was finally scrapped months later. Had the unit been good enough, they would probably end renaming the unit as Purifier or Vindicator and give it a much better model.

The Tempest is another one. Nobody liked it, but the unit was there some time. When they finally got to test it fully, they probably feeled it wasn't good enough, and they also realized the Carrier was one of the most iconic Protoss units, and so they decided to restore the original unit and start testing different mechanics, until they finally decided to emphasize it's SC1 role, and give it more range, and probably would give it more Interceptors, but that would make the screen unreadable, so they just gave each Interceptor a double attack.

That's what i think that happened. I don't really think that it's possible for the community to negatively impact the game. It's Blizzard who's developing it, and the responsability to make the right decisions rests fully over their shoulders. We can only hope to give good feedback, and for it to be heared in the middle of all the crap.