The incomplete story of the Zerg Spellcasters

[RamiZ]

If my opponent had spent the money for those Ultralisks on Tier 3 Roaches (with the Roach upgrades), I would have been utterly murdered. One on one, Roaches are more powerful, and they cost half of Hydralisks. Or you could go for mass Cracklings, which is even more devastating. Either way. Tier 3 offers much to a Zerg player.

Hell, Fungal Growth + Banelings alone would have ended my little Hydralisk army. But he went for the big, flashy thing like so many SC players, rather than the less sexy-but-effective counter.

Yeah, I am all for mass Tier 1 - 2 units than for "ZOMG ULTRAZZZ"...

Btw about Cracklings, with Tier 3, Hydras got 12 + 6 damage which is huge and they actually 2 shot Zerglings, would you think that at Tier 3 mass Cracklings would beat mass Hydras? I didn't played the game, but with all those numbers I am not convinced at all.

Also I do agree that he has many ways of beating you in ZvZ, but still this is beta, there are so much imbalanced stuf around, and I find overall looking, Zerg being really imbalanced(not imbalanced like Strong, but like they need a fix).

Meh, I still don't like Corruption ability on Corruptors... But that is my opinion.

Also Nicol in your Blog, you mentioned Roaches with speed upgrade many times. Did you try their regen upgrade at Tier 3 or did you tried Burrowed movement for them as assault units? I think they would be even worse than Reapers with Burrowed Movement, since you can see Reapers on the map, and if you don't expect Roaches, especially with Burrow, they are gonna make your life miserable!

Because Hydralisks are REALLY vulnerable. Hellions, Marine + Medivac, Colossi + Psi Storm. They cost about 1.5x as much and still have the same HP. They may be more offensively powerful, but defensively they're more vulnerable than ever.

Really? From all those counters you listed, I can see only Colossi + Psi Storm working. Hydras takes 4 shots to kill an Marine, and 5 to kill an Hellion, and since they have longer Range than Hellions and Hellions need good positioning, I don't think both of those are counters. I can also Kill Medivac in few shots. Yes, I see that they are "vulnerable", but they aren't more Vulnerable than they were in SC1 and they are now a lot stronger, but I guess it is the price for having them at Lair Tier after all.

[Todie]

The Infestor should have that ability, as an AoE spell; all affected units, if they die within X secondes, spawn broodlings or a stationary spore/suken colony.

This idea is seriously perfect.

nice ability. but on the corruptor? not sure.

Overseer: +Spore Cloud (keep Changeling)
Corrupter: +Corrupted mass(needs energy) +Corruption

and then balance the abilities a bit

To balance the "Corrupted Mass" give it a long range ie 9 or 12 instead of just standard Turret range... or a long lifetime (so that its major benefit is area denial to ground+air)

energy or cooldown based, i like this. the problem i had with corrupted mass was always that it seemed to random for the thing to trigger only if corrupters were the ones to finish it off. an activated ability that triggers it no matter who actually kills it makes this all better.

its a really interesting & nifty concept to have an ability that makes enemies into turrets. its a new kind of territory denial. something that might be welcome with lurker gone (good riddance)

however, as Nicol says, corrupter might be fine, with some tweaking.

i have barely even seen it in action, but im guessing the corruption duration is unnecesarily long and that it could use a slight boost in general damage. (not too much: it aught to retain its speciality vs massive?)

spore cloud would be cool. but no cloaking. i'd suggest a small radius and low cost & that teh enemy litteraly cant ee through it - its like terrain, extended to even air units (?) so you need to have a spotter on the otehr side to see! that makes it problematic with the units inside the aoe though, how do you even see and target them? you cant be expected to fly an observer right in tehre just to see them?.... a non circular target area would be best for this, but im not sure how that would actually work. what with angles etc.

[Todie]

Btw about Cracklings, with Tier 3, Hydras got 12 + 6 damage which is huge and they actually 2 shot Zerglings, would you think that at Tier 3 mass Cracklings would beat mass Hydras? I didn't played the game, but with all those numbers I am not convinced at all.

hydras get one per upgrade and that gets cancelled out by ling armor upgrades so its 3 shots. but it makes sense to either lead with ultras/roaches or to support with brood lords if your massing ling vs hydra (no i dont have beta either so im not SURE)

From all those counters you listed, I can see only Colossi + Psi Storm working. Hydras takes 4 shots to kill an Marine, and 5 to kill an Hellion, and since they have longer Range than Hellions and Hellions need good positioning, I don't think both of those are counters. I can also Kill Medivac in few shots. Yes, I see that they are "vulnerable", but they aren't more Vulnerable than they were in SC1 and they are now a lot stronger, but I guess it is the price for having them at Lair Tier after all.

powerful but fragile, thats the hydra for a. very suitable if you ask me. remember, they might not be more fragile than in sc1 but compared to COST they certainly are!

healed infantry with even minor artillery support is most likely a nut thats at least as hard to crack for hydras in sc2 as it was in sc1.. medevacs has some range, so tehy can be kept in teh back healing. marauders slow the hydras down, making it quite hard to reach back to the ST's or med's if your not flanking to begin with.

as a hydra counter, helions are harder to judge. its probably quite situational and i bet they too do well with support from ST's ... different types of splash is goodie.. also, ravens should be good. especially, they would make it even easier for terrans to hold chokes, with auto turrets and point-defenses.

[RamiZ]

hydras get one per upgrade and that gets cancelled out by ling armor upgrades so its 3 shots. but it makes sense to either lead with ultras/roaches or to support with brood lords if your massing ling vs hydra (no i dont have beta either so im not SURE)

So don't speak then :P :P :P Nicol clearly said Hydras got +2 damage modifier per upgrade and that he raped Ultralisks with Hydras, better for that cost making Roaches only!

And I am asking for Nicol to test it, I still think that after I saw few games, Hydras are imbalanced for 100/50. And yeah, Roach answer please asap!

And Nicol, I just have seen that Ultras still have AoE attack, remind me why they suck again? Maybe player you were facing wasn't good in positioning, but I just watched how Zerg destroyed Protoss with just massing Ultras vs Toss making Zealots, Colossi, Stalkers, Archons, HTs and Immortals... and yeah they were fighting in Protoss base with 10+ cannons...

[Aldrius]

After today's games, I'm going to have to re-think my concepts with regard to the Corruptor. They do seem legitimately capable against air units, though not necessarily cost-for-cost. However, I'm starting to think that Corruption may not be that bad of a mechanic after all.

Oh, there's no doubt that it's a good spell. I just don't know if it's a good spell for the Corruptor.

[Nicol Bolas]

Nicol clearly said Hydras got +2 damage modifier per upgrade

I got that wrong; it's only +1. They still own Ultralisks.

Oh, there's no doubt that it's a good spell. I just don't know if it's a good spell for the Corruptor.

Here's the thing. Any Corruptor is a potential Brood Lord. What it does in the meantime (kill air units, help Mutalisks harass, etc) is something of a bonus on top of that.

[flabortast]

IMO Corruption should be its default ground attack with long cooldown, instead of a spell. If you attack a structure, it automatically corrupts it so it stays more in line with the Zerg style passive abilities.

[Krikkitone]

IMO Corruption should be its default ground attack with long cooldown, instead of a spell. If you attack a structure, it automatically corrupts it so it stays more in line with the Zerg style passive abilities.

Actually, an energy ability is probably better for control reasons...
If the cooldown is very slow, then you have to seriosly micro your corrupters to "use the cooldown ability" as opposed to smartcasting it (where if I 'attack' a building only one corrupter will attack because the damage is negligible.)

I think a Corrupter with the dual energy abilities
Corrupt building (building deactivates for X time)
+
Corrupt Air unit (unit turns into 'turret' if killed during Y seconds... possibly even unit takes dps or is slowed)..autocastable (say 25 energy ~20-30 sec)

Would be a way to do it. (possibly also give the 'turret' that ability on autocast)



As for Spore cloud... an air LOS blocker would be just about as much of a hindrance to the Zerg as a help.

On the other hand if Spore Cloud acted Both as a LOS blocker (which air units cancel out) AND as a cloak for units within it (which detectors cancel out)... that means the way to counter it would be with a flying detector... like the Overseer (so the presence of an Overseer would eliminate the disadvantage of being in the cloud or having enemies in the cloud.

This would give the Zerg
2 lesser air casters: each with 2 abilities

Balancing with the Protoss/Terran
1 major air caster: MS/Raven (3 abilities) and other units with 1 "supporting" ability

[Aldrius]

As for Spore cloud... an air LOS blocker would be just about as much of a hindrance to the Zerg as a help.

No it wouldn't. The existing LoS blockers help Zerg more than hurt them already, I think. Sure if you mess it up it could hurt you more than help you, but the same is true of Force Field.

Personally I think there were likely technical issues or exploits with the ability that needed fixing.

Know what'd be fun actually? If they gave the Infestors' Siphon Life ability to the Corruptor. Had it like grab an air unit in it's tentacles, preventing it from moving or attack and dealing damage over time, while healing the corruptor. Having it cast at melee range. I actually kinda love that idea.

Then have the Infestor be Fungal Growth/Neural Parasite/Infest.

[Krikkitone]

Actually, I think the "Unit Corruption" ability could work like that.
Melee range, immobilizes unit (have it still attack) If it dies with a Corrupter attached then it becomes a turret.