Is this the new macro for protoss?

[ArcherofAiur]

I don't get it Archer. Why are you against this idea when it's pretty much exactly what you suggested for the Zerg?

Im not against the mechanic. Im analyzing specific things (good and bad) about the mechanic. I did the exact same thing with Proton Charge. See I look at mechanics are a assembly of parts. The parts that are good for gameplay I like, the parts that are bad for gameplay I dont like. After analyzing the individual parts I can better understand the whole.


Which kind of goes back to why I posted the Assimlator reference. The point wasnt, as my friend Bolas wrongly interpreted, to say that Time Warp were the exact same thing. Thats kind of a simple and frankly wrong statement dont you think? But ill thank him for pointing out the obvious.

No the point of that was to show the very framework of a mechanic. I have tremendous respect for the Dune II developers who created almost the entire macro infrastructure that has been used by RTS games for 20 years. They did so with a level of design craftsmanship that I feel is a long lost relic in these days.

In that respect we can see how far superior and elegant a mechanic like Vespene Gas was to the say Time Warp.

[Nicol Bolas]

No the point of that was to show the very framework of a mechanic.

So how did you fail so spectacularly in doing so? You failed to even correctly describe how vespene gas actually works, which would be a prerequisite for anything claiming to be a "framework" of vespene gas.

I have tremendous respect for the Dune II developers who created almost the entire macro infrastructure that has been used by RTS games for 20 years. They did so with a level of design craftsmanship that I feel is a long lost relic in these days.

Bullshit. They did nobody a service with that "entire macro infrastructure". Indeed, it has lead directly to Blizzard running into the macro problem. The macro infrastructure was based solely on mindlessness and automatable mechanics. Once a proper UI is added, the infrastructure is as weak as tissue paper.

Idolatry over Dune II, worshiping its gameplay as the one true way to make an RTS, is easily the most limiting thing in modern RTS design. 20 years of development time wasted using the same schematic instead of trying to do something truly better.

This kind of worship is the foundation of most of what is wrong in the modern videogame industry. All first-person games must be shooters; you can't do anything else in first-person. All FPS games must have multiplayer; you can't have any kind of FPS that is not amenable to multiplayer of some form. And so on.

In that respect we can see how far superior and elegant a mechanic like Vespene Gas was to the say Time Warp.

Of course it's elegant; it's a foundational resource. The entire game is designed around it, with it embedded into every part of the design. Unit costs are balanced against it, maps have to be designed around it, etc.

[flabortast]

Hell even Dune 2 had the harvester automatically search for spice when the Refinery was built. Why doesn't Starcraft 1 have this?

[KadajSouba]

Hell even Dune 2 had the harvester automatically search for spice when the Refinery was built. Why doesn't Starcraft 1 have this?

Starcraft 1???? Well starcraft 1 lacked a lot of things, that players understood as "mechanics". And yeah being unable to send ur workers to gather minerals automatically was really annoying, but then again, people praised it as "ANTI-NOOB" mechanics. And the list goes on and on.

One of the most funny ones, is that people is complaining about being unable to "STACK" mutas like in sc1... I mean really?????

[ArcherofAiur]

So how did you fail so spectacularly in doing so? You failed to even correctly describe how vespene gas actually works, which would be a prerequisite for anything claiming to be a "framework" of vespene gas.

Everything I said about the orginal gas mechanic was true. Im not going to argue with you over what basically amounts to a semantics battle.

Bullshit. They did nobody a service with that "entire macro infrastructure". Indeed, it has lead directly to Blizzard running into the macro problem. The macro infrastructure was based solely on mindlessness and automatable mechanics. Once a proper UI is added, the infrastructure is as weak as tissue paper.

How could the Dune II team have foreseen the "UI Improvement" trend 20 years ago? If anything the fault lies with RTS developers who for the past two decades have refused to challenge the original model.

I think you are way too critical of the people who almost single handedly laid the foundation for the modern RTS. Did they do everything correct? No. Did they work absolute miracles of game design? Most definately.

Idolatry over Dune II, worshiping its gameplay as the one true way to make an RTS, is easily the most limiting thing in modern RTS design. 20 years of development time wasted using the same schematic instead of trying to do something truly better.

Nicol this might surprise you but your preaching to the choir. The Dune model should be revisted. However where we differ is the emphasis I place on learning what the Dune model did right and improving on that. Im fine with change and their should be change. But the first step is examining how we got here.

Of course it's elegant; it's a foundational resource. The entire game is designed around it, with it embedded into every part of the design. Unit costs are balanced against it, maps have to be designed around it, etc.

Glad you agree. That is the standard I feel the new macro mechanics should be (and as of yet arnt) held up to.

[rcp181]

Starcraft 1???? Well starcraft 1 lacked a lot of things, that players understood as "mechanics". And yeah being unable to send ur workers to gather minerals automatically was really annoying, but then again, people praised it as "ANTI-NOOB" mechanics. And the list goes on and on.

One of the most funny ones, is that people is complaining about being unable to "STACK" mutas like in sc1... I mean really?????

You can still stack in sc2

[Norfindel]

So now you can choose where to apply a time boost to production or research?

I think it will probably be used to produce Probes faster, then switch to warrior production as needed, much like SL. Sporadic use to research something important, like the first weapon upgrade, Psi Storm, or early Hallucination.

I wonder how they are going to balance this when coupled with Warp-in. Looks like the Terrans are going to be in deep shit. MULEs cannot be as effective as faster worker production.

Not the most innovative mechanic in the world, but certainly better than PC.

[MattII]

We still have to see if the Nexus can cast Time Warp on itself though.

[milo]

I wonder how they are going to balance this when coupled with Warp-in. Looks like the Terrans are going to be in deep shit. MULEs cannot be as effective as faster worker production.

MULE's gathering rate/timed life can easily be tweaked for balance. And taking the reactor add-on into the macro consideration, Terrans should be in good shape.

[ArcherofAiur]

MULE needs Redundant Targeting work.